Doug's Darkworld

War, Science, and Philosophy in a Fractured World.

The Moorgate Tube Crash Deconstructed

with 174 comments

In the same spirit as my column on the Dyatlov Pass Accident I thought I’d cover another historical disaster mystery, the 1975 London Moorgate tube crash. This was a subway train cash where 43 people died immediately, a few more subsequently dies of their injuries. It is the second worst subway disaster in English history. In some ways there’s no mystery at all, in other ways it’s completely baffling. How the accident happened is very simple, a subway reached the end of the line and, instead of stopping, the driver drove  through the station into a dead end tunnel. There was no attempt made to stop the train, the train’s throttle was of the “dead man switch” type and the driver kept it at full speed until he hit the wall, he didn’t even throw his hands in front of his face before the impact.

What the hell? Mechanical problems were ruled out. The driver was healthy, with no history of drug use or alcoholism, and none was found in his body. Could he have just spaced out and driven through the station into the wall? It has happened before, but in this case the train hit quite a bump going through the station at normal speed, some passengers were thrown from their chairs, some standing passengers fell down. It’s hard to imagine a jolt like that not snapping him out of a revery. One exotic possibility is that he suffered a type of seizure known as “transient global amnesia” or “dissociative fugue”, a subject I have touched on in another post. In this case he might have been “frozen” in position and been unable to move or even unaware of where he was. However these types of events are very very rare and he had no history of such.

Suicide was also ruled out, the driver was a reliable worker with no history of suicide. He was happily married with family. And he had £300 (approx. $500 USA) in his pocket with which he was going to buy a used car for his daughter on the way home. He certainly had no reason to commit suicide and no indication that he was suicidal. And that basically was that, the cause of the crash remains officially undetermined to this day. At least some good came of it, after this accident all passenger trains and tube trains in Britain were equipped with a device that would apply the brakes if a train was approaching a dead end.

One railroad author and former tube driver, Piers Connor, thinks inattentiveness was the cause of the crash, it apparently caused a similar crash in 1971. In that case the train was empty, and the driver did apply the breaks at the last moment. Unfortunately not soon enough, and he died before reaching the hospital. I suppose it’s possible, maybe the jolt did snap the Moorgate driver out of his revery but he was still disoriented until too late. I dunno though, witnesses on the platform said the driver appeared to be remaining straight up and staring forward even after the bump. Which leads back to suicide, author Laurence Marks, whose father died in the crash and subsequently spent a year investigating it, thinks the crash was deliberate and preplanned since apparently the driver had overrun a platform on at least one other occasion. I dunno though, while people do plan their suicides, they don’t usually take a bunch of folks with them unless they have some terrible grudge.

Myself, I think it was suicide. I think it was a very impulsive things are, as many suicides are. I suspect he was a lot more depressed than people at the time realized, this was 1975 and depression was not as often recognized or diagnosed in those days. And he was an older man, 56, from an era where one simply did not admit mental problems and seek counselling. In fact I think that the daughter’s car money in his pocket is what really points to this, on some level that symbolized his child leaving the nest, this can be extremely stressful for some parents. And stressors can trigger a suicidal impulse, every year a few college students fling themselves off dorm roofs because of a failing grade, it happens.

All in all though, the cause of this crash is mysterious and may always remain so. I just find genuine mysteries interesting. I mean, it has to have a prosaic explanation, doesn’t it? There’s a few other big unexplained accidents and plane crashes and stuff I’ll write about by and by.

God rest the souls of those that died that died, let their families find peace.

(The above image of rescuers at the Moorgate crash site is claimed as Fair Use under US copyright law, it is not being used for profit and is central to illustrating the image. There’s very few pictures of this crash on line, I guess this was just before “image journalism” or whatever it’s called began to explode.)

Written by unitedcats

May 14, 2008 at 11:07 am

Posted in Uncategorized

174 Responses

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  1. Of course if the driver had had a history of suicide, the accident would never have happened… :)

    Ric

    May 14, 2008 at 3:11 pm

  2. I agree with Ric; I think “attempt” is missing here (or “family” before “history”, knowing that survivors of the suicide of a loved one are, statistically, 400% times more likely to commit suicide).
    I don’t know much about this event, but I too would tend to think it was suicide. I’m always weary of “no indication that he was suicidal” a lot of people don’t. Some just get up during a family dinner and blow their brains out in the bathroom. As for the money for his daughter’s car, why would that stop him from killing himself. He probably also figure that, being at the front of the train, he might be the only one to die. Also, if he did commit suicide, he was probably in a lot of pain (psychological or otherwise) and couldn’t really think of the others that might die with him.

    Marc André

    May 15, 2008 at 7:05 am

  3. man i was going to point out the history thing too but it seems like you already have a bunch of smartasses reading your blog.

    anyway ive never heard of this before and it seems pretty obvious that he just killed himself, we didnt live in an information age then so we couldnt have read his livejournal or myspace and figured out what was going on in his head

    daphny

    May 18, 2008 at 11:13 am

  4. […] doing a bit of research for this post, I found the following interesting statement on another blog:  “Suicide was also ruled out, the driver was a reliable worker with no history of […]

    • Somebody needs to need the accident report: suicide was not ruled out.

      Paul

      October 3, 2013 at 3:36 am

  5. How on earth does £300 become $50,000 US?

    No more than $600 and I would guess in 1974 probably around $450.

    Phil

    August 25, 2009 at 9:24 am

  6. It is possible that he collapsed in such a way that his body was holding the dead man on.

    Phil

    August 25, 2009 at 9:26 am

  7. LOL You’re the first person to catch the US$ thing, yeah, that was ridiculous. Thanks, I edited it.

    As for the deadman switch, yes, maybe, but still wouldn’t explain why he went right through the station. I still think it was simply an impulsive suicide, it happens.

    unitedcats

    August 25, 2009 at 9:44 am

    • He had boarded the train himself only an hour earlier. I think he was sleepy, it was a cold day, he got into a warm cab a sailed off into the dark and ultimately into dreamland. The dead man’s handle was released two seconds before the end of the tunnel, that marks the point at which he woke up. The reason I feel so sure is because I’ve done it. In 1963 I was learning to drive. On a cold winters night I walked to the driving school in time to pick up a car that had just come in.It was nice and warm. Under instruction I turned into an unlit side street. The next thing I knew was the examiner shaking me. The car had been stopped by him. The lights were at red. He told me, you were getting faster and I became worried I shouted you did not respond you were asleep,…. and you had your eyes wide open.

      barry waterfield

      October 7, 2012 at 12:03 pm

  8. Just listened to a radio programme about Moorgate which suggested another possible cause a bit like inattentiveness. Apparently one of the stations on the line Essex Road is closed on Sundays and when it is closed the lights in the tunnel before the station are put on to remind the driver to go straight through.

    That morning, a Friday, the lights were on in the tunnel just before Moorgate. It is suggested that he thought he was coming to Essex Road and thought it was a Sunday.

    This small stretch of London subway is immensely borinf to drive apparently as it never goes above surface and sometimes a driver forgets which direction he is actually travelling in.

    Plausible I think and the facts would fit with it.

    Steve

    December 2, 2009 at 5:31 am

    • Very plausible, in fact easily the best explanation I have heard yet for the disaster. There has been more than one disaster caused by someone being momentarily inattentive and they got confused about where they were, what they were doing, etc. I might even make a blog post on it.

      Thanks!
      Doug

      unitedcats

      December 2, 2009 at 10:54 am

      • That is interesting, but it was ruled out in the inquest. Platform 9 was filled with passengers waiting to get on for the return trip. There was also a red stop light and sand drag visible all the way, Surely that would have startled him? Also, it would be common practice to slow down when passing through a station that was closed.
        The driver actually continued to accelerate through the station into the dead-end tunnel. Passengers on the train testified that there was a big jolt and bang when the it went over the crossover points just before entering the station. People were thrown around the carriages. Surely this would have startled an inattentive driver?
        And one of the last people standing at the other end of the platform just before it hit the buffers testified that the driver was still sitting bolt upright in his cabin and applying the controls.

        That suggests suicide to me. I remember reading a book about the disaster some time ago that said a few months before it happened the driver had been involved in an incident where he was assaulted by a passanger, and had been given time off to recover. His wife said that this had made him a bit down as well. Perhaps he was a lot more depressed than he let on, and saw this as a way out.
        It is a grave charge to lay on someone, given that it was a packed rush hour train and he must have known the danger he was putting the passengers in, but then if you are suicidal, maybe you are unable to think rationally, and maybe he just did it on impulse. We’ll never really know.

        Mike

        December 3, 2009 at 11:30 am

    • This sounds to me like the answer. Everything fits, even the acceleration as the train came into the station, if you were going straight through you would accelerate. I wonder why this has taken so long to come out?

      barry waterfield

      February 25, 2013 at 2:32 pm

  9. do you know whether they did a post mort on the driver lesley or was his body too much of a mess to carry one out

    nichola

    December 29, 2009 at 11:40 am

  10. have you ever thought that they knew what caused the accident,there was part blame on the driver but it was mechanical and they covered it up

    nichola

    January 14, 2010 at 9:46 am

  11. Yeah i am very annoyed/disgusted with our Government allowing this to go on for so long, Yes 35 years ago this year 28.2, Why haven’t our lazy Government done anything about it? Labour were in power then (Harold Wilson) & Labour is in power now, If i had my way I would hang the lot of them for failing to do their jobs properly! I remember this incident well & still get Flashbacks about it, Us the General Public have asked various questions It’s now time we got answers! so that our minds can be put to rest, A truthful Verdict should now given & to be made public by TV News as wellas the Press.

    DJ.

    February 17, 2010 at 2:13 pm

    • i agree,i also feel sorry for the drivers family they have had to live with all the bad press that there husband and father commited suicide,i have heard that the train on the morning of the accident had been repaired by two engineers

      nichola

      February 18, 2010 at 6:57 am

      • Yes that’s right i do remember that too but where’s the evidence to show that the train was cleared to be used, Apparently the marker was missing/mislaid why? That’s a serious offence and should of faced prosecution, Is that why LT seized and were taken over as Privatisation? The biggest mistake ever to allow it, Is that why everyone feels safer to use their own method of transport these days.

        DJ.

        February 28, 2010 at 1:18 pm

      • Yes I believe that could be right Nicola, But where’s the proof to say that it was ok to resume service? It was mentioned earlier that it was at the Neasden Depotunfit to use but to be taken to Drayton Park Depot for Maintenance to be completed, So why was it put into service? There was a statement mentioned that the numbers were out of sequence so it was used to fill the gap as D272.

        dj

        July 20, 2016 at 5:03 am

  12. Yes It’s now 35 years & a few days old, How much longer will it take to hear the real story & truth before compensation can be paid out, Cutting corners is not good enough as that’s just an easy way of getting out of it, We need to hear the Truth, The Whole Truth & nothing but the whole truth as to what went wrong that morning , Why was the guard late & when he arrived why was’nt he being supervised instead of looking for a newspaper & not being at the controls?

    dj

    March 1, 2010 at 1:21 pm

  13. Here we go again, 35 years & 16 days old & we still wait for the truth, as to what did actually go wrong that morning & why, Us public have a right to know, & want the verdict to come out on the news & in the press, filing the evidence away just proves guiltyness.

    DJ.

    March 15, 2010 at 1:08 pm

  14. Did the authorities know the identity of the passenger who assaulted the driver? If so, did the assault happen on the same route and what became of this passenger? Had the driver seen this passenger get on his train again that morning?

    pavlos

    March 15, 2010 at 2:30 pm

  15. […] This post is one of my most popular posts of all time, if you liked it you might also like The Moorgate Tube Crash Deconstructed , The Sun Became Dark, its Darkness Lasted for Eighteen Months, and When Volcanoes Attack. A number […]

  16. Depending upon the design of the train, and the height and frequency and brightness of the tunnel lights, the driver may have been subjected to a flicker rate that can cause disorientation or other effects (including seizures etc, the type of reaction depends upon the flicker rate and the subject’s sensitivity). Under the influence of this the driver can effectively disassociate. The driver may take up to, say, 2 1/2 seconds to reorientate,and say 2 1/2 seconds to react. the reorientation may be caused by something trivial, such as minor change in lighting conditions or depending upon the depth of disorientation it may need something more major. Repeated exposure to such conditions would appear to increase the tendency for this condition and decrease the ease of recovery.

    Jack

    October 30, 2010 at 1:51 am

  17. I am researching this disaster for a book and would like to talk to anyone who is remotely connected to Moorgate as well as anyone who has any info no matter how small.

    In the meantime I am already working with the relatives of those killed to have a memorial put up somewhere in memory of those killed. It surprises me that one of Britains worst rail accidents has nothing to show anything happened when crashes with a lesser death toll are commemorated with at least a plaque.

    Anyone interested in helping me please contact me on info@atlantisexploration.com

    Richard Jones

    February 22, 2011 at 11:31 am

    • Well all i can say is Blame our ????y Government, What exactly have they & LT done about it? Nothing!! Proves Guiltiness/A Cover up job, to which i have always said since day 1.As we all know it was 41years & 5 months ago when this occurred, Has’nt anyone got the power to get this sorted, announced, published so that minds can be put to rest? Waving the magic wond days are over, So Come on get things moving now not 2051!! Who’ll be around then?

      dj

      July 20, 2016 at 5:55 am

  18. I’m sure that i read in one of the reports at the time 1 of the trailer carriages had been recognised that it was leaking fluid as the meter was showing low at the time, 012263 or 012167? so why has’nt that been looked into also it is now 36 yearss ago when this happened, are we the general public ever going to be given the truth/answers? This should be now “be treated as Prosecuted Heavily” as it’s a disgrace the way we are being treated from the Government!Hang the lot of them!

    DJ

    March 2, 2011 at 3:34 pm

  19. I also remember reading that there was a passenger warning other’s that there had been a crash down belowthis person apparently was covered in soot & was as if he had done something wrong by escaping quickly, Was he ever found & questioned? I am sure that it may have been mentioned in the book “Anatomy of a Rail Disaster” by Sally Holloway!

    DJ

    March 24, 2011 at 3:30 pm

  20. The Tunnel where the accident occurred should now be named as a tunnel of death. Does anyone know any other information or even have any pictures as this would help to solve the mystery, We the General Public should have a right to put down a plaque or something to prove that we care, It’s a sheer disgrace for not having anything placed near the scene.I totally demand for something to be placed there,

    DJ

    June 12, 2011 at 2:26 pm

  21. There was a train crash in the US some years back when the train driver left his lunch box down on the dead man switch so that he wood not have to keep it pressed all the time, he then fell asleep. Maybe the same thing happened here.

    kc

    July 18, 2011 at 1:39 pm

  22. I just read more on this crash and it does look like suicide.

    kc

    July 18, 2011 at 3:44 pm

  23. You make one mistake in your article – there was alchohol discovered in the mans stomach at the post mortem. However this doesn’t mean he had been drinking – it’s possible that his stomach contents began to ferment over the four days they took to remove his body from the wreckage.

    Anyone with family involved with Moorgate 28th Feb 1975 would prefer not turn the site into some sort of shrine. The victims died there – they do not live on in that tunnel, but elsewhere.

    @DJ – unless you have family involved, please refrain from demanding anything thank you.

    ANON

    July 21, 2011 at 6:17 am

    • There was NO alcohol found in his stomach. That was untrue.

      Now here’s a question for you. If there was no alcohol in his stomach or bloodstream, why did someone lie about this? Was someone covering something up?

      Martin Scholes

      February 28, 2012 at 5:50 am

      • The driver’s body had been festering in heat for 2 – 3 days before they were able to retrieve it. In these conditions, the body de-composes and produces alcohol and it was this alcohol that was found. The driver also had a bottle of milk with him as well for tea breaks, and exactly the same thing had happened again with the milk – it produced alcohol as a result of going off. The full government report into the disaster is easy to find on the internet.

        kittensoft41019

        June 20, 2012 at 5:17 am

  24. Well I have today spoken to some of the relatives and have got bank accounts and various designs set up so we are in the first stages of building the memorial. It wont be in the Underground station because 1) It wont be very good for modern day travellers to know thats where a train crashed, 2)Its not a nice place on the underground at the best of times especially on platform 9 where it happened and 3)There will be a lot of people to commemorate the disaster on the anniversaries…..43 relatives of deceased, 80 survivors, 1200 firemen, 300 police and various others that had involvement, the station would be packed and wouldnt be practical. Hopefully if the plans go OK then a stone wall with all the names on will be errected close to the station at street level and paying tribute to the rescuers etc.

    Richard Jones

    July 21, 2011 at 12:48 pm

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    MMJay

    September 18, 2011 at 11:25 pm

  26. We know the driver did not put his hands in front of his face just before impact. Now, if it was suicide, the driver still wouldn’t have been able to avoid putting his hands in front of his face because doing so is an instinctive thing to do, even if he was deliberately crashing the train. Therefore it seems unlikely to have been suicide in my opinion. It seems more likely to have been some kind of medical condition which prevented him putting his hands up just before impact.

    Andy JS

    February 7, 2012 at 6:32 am

    • He could have closed his eyes. I agree, a medical condition is a possible cause of the crash. I just don’t think an impulsive suicide can be ruled out, it’s far more common than was thought at the time of the first investigation. —Doug

      unitedcats

      February 7, 2012 at 8:49 am

  27. In response to Andy JS – This is incorrect. I am a train driver and sadly have had someone commit suicide in front of the train I was driving. She never covered her face or raised her arms. I am inclined to agree though that in this instance it is more likely that a petit mal seizure occurred. There was alcohol in the body but this was as a result of fermentation. Sadly, we shall never know why this incident happened. I have driven this stretch many, many times and even now, Moorgate is eerie.

    Dave Mac

    February 29, 2012 at 9:23 am

  28. A London underground employee told me the guard sometimes entered the rear cab to prepare the train for the journey back to Drayton Park.Could the guard isolated the brakes?It seemed suspicious the guard at the late stage goes and looks for a paper,when atrain terminating generally has papers left in the carriges..
    However the driver would surely have tried to save himself by entering the passenger car.As I have experienced it is possible to fall asleep sitting upright.I know of a lookoutman found asleep standing upright looking out for his colleagues.

    P Armand

    March 5, 2012 at 3:00 pm

  29. […] a case where comments have made me re-evaluate my position. That would be the Moorgate Tube Crash. Upon further reflection and comments, maybe the explanation is even more mundane than suicide. […]

  30. Having followed this story for years and as yet no conclusive evidence ,i was told that when the fireman got to the driver they found that his trousers was undone and that he had one hand around his penis

    i know this sounds ludicrous but apparently thiss is what happened but the authoritys obviously will not let this information public ????

    chrisyems

    March 26, 2012 at 4:37 am

    • Oh yeah. Many a time I heard of train drivers caught with there trousers down. I know one of the fireman who where there and what you say you was “told” is total crap.

      john

      June 18, 2013 at 9:03 am

  31. I think, because of the nature of the story, we will never really know what happened on that terrible morning. One theory I did read about a few years ago was that the poor driver ay have seen some paranormal activity and may have explained why he was bolt upright in his seat as he passed the platform. Would this explain his apparent frozen stance as seen by several witnesses?
    Food for thought…………….??????
    Whatever caused the crash it will probably remain a mystery and one of the blackest days ever on the London Underground. I understand the Moorgate crash is the second worst incident on the Underground after the terrorist incidents in July 2005.

    Shaun Crowther

    April 16, 2012 at 11:28 pm

  32. I found some interesting comments posted on the net about this;

    From the Daily Mail article ; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240625/Thirty-years-Britains-worst-Tube-crash-victims-son-asks-Did-suicidal-driver-kill-42-innocent-passengers.html

    If mr Marks cares to contact me I can appriase him of the correct facts, I was the fire officer in charge of rescue. I also reached mr Newson first . he had not been drinking, I can confirm that he had the throttle closed and in his right hand as if holding the dead mans handle in the brake down position. I had already been trained in LT train use. as a Emergency tender OIC. Mr Newson did not commit suicide and this is also the opinion of other experts in LT and the Police whom I liaised with in later years. the family of mr Newson can rest assured the above is correct which may be of some comfort to them . I have tried to contact mr Newson on previous occasions to no success. My contacts in LT who personally knew Mr Newson have also confirmed the above he was well aquainted with the Station and no effort on his part could slow the train as he followed the correct proceedure. I was there for the period from one hour after the collision until the fourth day as blue watch rescue
    – eddie.carrera, Norwich, 05/1/2010 09:28

    ALSO

    http://www.islingtontribune.com/letters/2012/mar/real-crash-train

    The real crash train
    Published: 02 March 2012

    • THE letter about the 1975 Moorgate Tube train crash was most interesting (Moorgate disaster driver a target of vicious campaign, February 24).

    A contemporary of motorman Newson at the time of the accident, I was a trainman on the Bakerloo line, and the Northern line shared our rolling stock.

    Over the last few years, I have used my working knowledge and experience to scrutinise available evidence concerning the crash, mainly from the transcripts of the inquest and the government railway accident report into the cause of the Moorgate crash.

    That report should have come with the caveat E&OE, errors and omissions excepted.

    Evidence suggests to me that the crash train was not the one claimed to have been prepared for service and driven by Newson on several trips without complaint, and that the first driving trip south in it was undertaken by another motorman who found the brakes and other equipment to be in good order.

    It appears the crash train was acquired by Newson in an unofficial crew changeover at Old Street station.

    Newson drove it to Drayton Park for the first time that morning, and then south to Moorgate whereupon it crashed.

    It appears the actual crash train had been sent to Drayton Park depot, from Neasden depot, with brake and motor defects.

    It was awaiting return to Neasden, where it was due to be scrapped. Instead, it was scrapped in service at Moorgate.

    Anthony Bright
    Penarth, Wales

    It seems as if the internal enquiries are still secret and will be published in 2051 !! make of that what you will ….

    Flappo

    May 20, 2012 at 1:44 am

    • Hi Flappo…. I am the one writing the book on this and also secured a memorial to the victims. I would very much like you to contact me directly if possible if you would be up for having an interview for the book with you being a senior figure and obviously somebody who is clued up on this. Many thanks. Rich Jones. info@atlantisexploration.com

      Richard Jones

      May 20, 2012 at 5:31 am

      • Hi there. No I’m not a very senior figure at all , sorry. Just another one of the many people intrigued by this terrible mystery over the years. One place I did find some interesting info was at ;

        http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=print&thread=556

        http://districtdave.proboards.com/index.cgi

        Apparently several posters there knew the driver and have inside info on what really happened.

        It might be worth joining up and pm’ing the moderators about it. I’m sure someone can help you.

        Best of luck with everything.

        Flappo

        May 20, 2012 at 5:58 am

      • I’ve already mentioned the possibility of being affected by light flicker – apparently putting a driver into a state of unawareness without closing their eyes. This effect depends upon speed of train, spacing of lights, intensity of lights (and contrast with surrounds), and the susceptibility of individuals to this effect (up to 30% of individuals when all conditions are at their worst – as encountered when testing helicopter pilots). The effect has been known to have been felt by drivers (this is not the same as epilepsy, although the condition can be initiated by the same conditions). The Moorgate report is at the following site: http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Moorgate1975.pdf?PHPSESSID=07ccb14cf81b39f4d76ce419f3d6b127. The report indicates conflict as to the state of the tunnel lighting, but even if the immediately preceding section of tunnel is unlit, there is still the possibility that a driver remains in a state of unawareness for a considerable period of time after becoming affected, while still holding the deadman down. The report contains details of light spacing and likely speed. Various national/international standards give the rates of flicker that make a person susceptible, and the means of calculating this. The report skirts this issue, but the emphasis on tunnel lighting conditions should indicate that the failure to address this was quite possibly deliberate. A driver could operate a train for a considerable distance and not be aware afterwards that they had done so. As exposure is repeated a driver is likely to become more easily induced into this state of unawareness and less easily recover from it. After recovering it is likely that a driver would take at least 5 seconds to react (check what this means in terms of distance). It could mean that a train could be operated for at least as long as 20 seconds effectively unmanned (as indicated by a recent possible anonymous example). Reading the following might be of benefit: Silk, A.C., Flicker and Electroclinincal syndromes. The effects of migraine variants in control room
        situations and on drivers. People in Control: An lntemational Conference on Human Interfaces in
        Control Rooms, Cockpits and Command Centres. 19-21 June 2001, Conference Publication No. 481 0
        IEE 2001.

        From everything I’ve read about the Moorgate incident, and despite the conflicting evidence of the condition of lighting in the immediately preceding section of tunnel, I have seen no evidence of an alternative cause that is more convincing than flicker. Given the tunnel lighting standards used in the UK and elsewhere, acknowledging this as an issue has massive implications. I would suggest that the standards used are more than 40 years outdated, given the lighting principles that were certainly being taught in the 1960s and before.

        Jack

        May 20, 2012 at 8:38 am

  33. “There have been a number of further investigations including the presentation of evidence which ought to be kept secret until 2051 stolen by a reporter from the Coroner’s Office!”

    I dredged that quote up from the district Dave board … If there’s nothing to hide why are they keeping it under wraps until 2051 ? When all the people who were originally involved will no doubt be long gone.

    The plot thickens.

    Flappo

    May 20, 2012 at 9:40 am

    • Hi,

      My name is Steve – are you Tony Bright a good friend of Del Lomas ?.
      Is Del still around, if so do you have an email for him.
      You might remember me – I think Tom scott was also in our circle.

      Hope you can help.

      Steve Tish

      Steve Tish

      October 15, 2014 at 12:52 am

  34. Here’s the link to that quote . The mod says that several posters have inside info on what really happened…

    http://districtdavesforum.co.uk/index.cgi?board=History&action=print&thread=12329

    It really is starting to sound a tad dodgy to me.

    Flappo

    May 20, 2012 at 9:44 am

  35. In reply to Jack – would this flickering ‘phenomena’ (is that the right word??) be similar – although not the same, obviously – as when driving a car (for example) down a motorway and you appear to do this on automatic pilot. That is, you drive several miles down an very oft-travelled route and you don’t actually realise you’ve done quite a distance before you appear to come to your senses and realise your immediate surroundings.

    That is, you are aware you are driving but don’t actually remember the actual period you are driving (if you get my drift).

    Perhaps this is what happened to the unfortunate driver in the Moorgate incident – although in completely different circumstances?

    Shaun Crowther

    May 21, 2012 at 1:00 am

    • Maybe, but this would depend on the cause of this phenomena – it may be caused by flicker (for example passing straight trees spaced evenly, with a background light of fairly consistent intensity), or possibly something different. Light flicker is specifically known to have the effect I mentioned. It implies something more severe (possibly) than being on auto-pilot, since it would appear most people who apparently drive on auto-pilot don’t have accidents because they apparently respond to external stimuli to brake, accelerate and turn etc., whereas drivers and others affected by flicker are often not aware at all that they have disassociated, unless they notice some aspect of their surrounds that have changed. I have not studied the issue of being on auto-pilot, whereas the issue of flicker is known to affect drivers, pilots, and even people working in static environments with unsuitable lighting. I suspect that the auto-pilot type of driving is likely to be different – for example one truck driver described a scenario where he drove hundreds of kilometres, unloaded his truck and returned to his base without any memory of the entire trip (keeping in mind he/she may have been taking performance enhancing drugs to keep awake during this time). Perhaps the boundaries between the two types of responses and others are fuzzy? Keep in mind other types of responses such as epilepsy attacks and seizures do not generally respond to external interruptions (although with both of these it is considered very important to remove the stimuli as soon as possible).

      Jack

      May 21, 2012 at 7:58 am

  36. Forget the light flicker theory. A driver is looking forward and sees one continuous light ahead of him unless of course some bulbs are out. Even so it still appears as a continuous light. Moorgate was an extreme embarassment to the Labour Government at the time and it called in favours with the relevant trades unions i.e. ASLEF and the then NUR. Both unions did not have counsel at the inquest and Neil Milligan, London Organising Secretary, ASLEF, deliberately distracted the inquest by banging on about the guard not being issued with a watch and the absence of a guard’s journal. It is significant that no Running Cards, Train Registers nor the relevant Working Timetable were entered into evidence. Also not entered into evidence was the Rolling Stock Notice of October 1974, issued by Gordon Hafter, Rolling Stock Engineer, that due to defective deadman’s handles, a proportion of 1938 Tube Stock units were to be semi-permanently coupled so that the deadman equipment could be removed from the middle cabs to replace the worn out equipment in the leading cabs. The said Notice led to RSE Staff at Neasden stealing the batteries, the mercury from retarders and anything else they could sell to the scrappy. Instead of maintaining the trains, they spent their work time stealing from them. Of course, this is just my opinion but it is based on in-depth research which I will eventually publish. Anthony Bright, former member of LT Trainstaff and former ASLEF Branch Secretary.

    Anthony Bright

    July 30, 2012 at 9:26 am

    • Probably it would be appropriate to study the theory of light flicker more deeply, before discarding it – or at least justify the statement with facts (such as whether there are gaps between lamps, and how big they are), and calculations. Where lights are continuous without gaps between fittings light flicker would probably be irrelevant. However even relatively small gaps between units (say half a fluorescent tube in length or even less depending upon brightness and contrast) cause flicker – whether it is relevant or not depends upon the speed of the train, lengths of gap and fitting and the critical rate of flicker among other factors. I am referring, of course, to the flicker between lights – not to be confused with flicker produced in the lamp itself (which can be an issue, but more rarely – although it should be noted that banks of lights on the same circuit can flicker in unison, and if the lamp flicker is at an inappropriate rate can still be a problem – even some of the more modern lamps can give a problem). Where lamps are spaced at distances such as 7.5m, or 15m flicker definitely can be a problem. Referring to a number of country and international Standards will give the means for calculating flicker rates (Note – railway Standards are sometimes deficient in this topic). The author should also distinguish between direct and peripheral vision – peripheral is highly likely to be more problematic and the more serious issue, which is why short breaks between lamps can be of significance. Without being specific it would appear that flicker has been a definite issue in at least one tunnel system of so-called continuous lighting – and this would appear to be the belief of a number of drivers, confirmed by calculation in accordance with Standards. Note that the vertical distance between the drivers’ line of sight and the height of the lamps is a significant factor, and the frequency and width of mullions in the windscreen and side windows of the cab also need to be considered. Until the appropriate details of these and other factors are known and the appropriate calculations are made and provided I would find it hard to take any arbitrary dismissal of flicker as the issue seriously.

      Jack

      July 30, 2012 at 8:52 pm

  37. I am amazed at the thoughtful comments this post provoked. I still think impulsive suicide is a possibility. I also now think he might simply have “spaced out.” He was just thinking about stuff and got lost in his thoughts. Damned if I know though. Thanks for commenting. —Doug

    unitedcats

    July 30, 2012 at 9:05 pm

  38. The tunnel lights on the Northern City Line were spaced about 40 feet apart and were sixty watt incandescent bulbs. The view from the driving cab is direct and in my experience of driving tube trains there was never any flicker such as to trigger an epiletic seizure. However, the head injury from the assault certainly may have triggered one months later. The 76 year rule on the documents of the crash relate to the coroner’s inquest witness statements. The 500 plus pages of the inquest transcripts are however available for viewing at the London Metropolitan Archive. I have scrutinized these on several occasions and it is interesting to note that the Guard of T272, Robert Harris, was, after about 30 minutes or so, taken by officers of the City of London Police to Wood Street Police Station. An LT Area Manager attending at Moorgate was told where Harris was and went to the police station. He asked the desk sergeant where Harris was and was told he was being walked around the streets to get some air to clear his head. Harris, in the presence of the police was questioned for about an hour by the Area Manager and made a statement. Harris was free to leave the interview at any time and after making the statement left with the Area Manager who asked Harris if he wanted to go to hospital. Harris declined and went home. Before the inquest Harris made another statement and the coroner, upon viewing both said that the original statement could remain on file and the second could be entered into evidence. It should also be borne in mind that the inquest was originally scheduled for 3 days, sitting from 0900 to 1800 including a lunch break. The jury in this time heard evidence from sixty witnesses. If Moorgate occurred today the inquest would take at least a month! In the event it went to a fourth day because the boozing allegation was challenged. And bear this is mind: the government pathologist was Professor Keith Simpson, whose past medical opinion had sent many a murderer to the hangman. On this occasion Simpson found Newson’s body to be in good condition, even after four days of decomposure in high temperatures (100 plusF), and could find no medical evidence why Newson failed to stop the train. Newson’s body was identified by a close friend, a LT bus inspector. But, if Newson’s body was in such good nick, why did Newson’s dentist have to formally identify Newson’s dentures? I have found much amiss about Moorgate!

    Anthony Bright

    July 31, 2012 at 9:21 am

    • Regarding flicker, 40 feet equates roughly to 15m, which is a spacing reported and calculated as potentially giving problems. However 60W bulbs are not particularly bright. The percentage of people affected by flicker can vary significantly depending on a number of factors, as previously mentioned. Extreme conditions can lead to flicker affecting close to 40% of people (as experienced by people training to be helicopter pilots), although 8-15% is more commonly reported where flicker stimuli are known to exist (apart from the other factors there also appears to be a difference in reported response depending upon the sex of the person affected), possibly lowering sensitivity significantly. Your example suggests that glare and contrast are a lot lower than that experienced in some other systems, which would reduce susceptibility. Also as a train driver I have experienced conditions (in one of several different tunnel systems) that are definitely disturbing, as reported by a number of drivers. Epilepsy might be too narrow a definition – it was not specifically identified as the cause of the seizure experienced by one driver (who has not had seizures either before or after the one event, but no longer drives the route). Other drivers have experienced milder reactions not requiring hospitalisation. Drivers have reported other symptoms ascribed to the lighting systems for this tunnel.- apparent visual spinning effect, disorientation etc. Although some of these have been reported, not many drivers report the effects, due to a perception that this may affect their employment prospects. Given your somewhat limited description of 2 of the factors it may be that the tunnel you mention may cause either no-one or a low percentage of people to be affected, or a higher percentage are affected but don’t report it or deal with it in a variety of ways (for example driving in a tunnel with their eyes shut for part of the time, making sure their cab light is bright, restricting peripheral vision in a variety of ways etc.). It would appear that taking statins (for example for treatment of cholesterol problems) can also increase sensitivity. It is sometimes hard for those who are not susceptible to accept that tunnel environments where they are not uncomfortable can affect others, sometimes to dangerous levels.In other tunnels in the system only very low level discomfort has generally been reported, and only one driver is known to spefically avoid the relevant tunnel.
      Regards –

      Jack

      August 2, 2012 at 9:11 am

  39. After 37 years the memorial is going ahead very soon for this disaster….. the only problem I have at the moment is a few spelling mistakes that have been brought to my attention from some of the various nationalities of victims.

    If anybody out there has lost a friend or a relative in this tragedy then please get in touch with me even if it is just to double check the spelling of the person involved. I can be contacted on shipwreckdata@yahoo.co.uk and would welcome any further information and help on this if anybody out there has it.

    Many thanks
    Rich Jones

    Rich Jones

    August 1, 2012 at 9:35 am

  40. In evidence given at the two day public hearing part of the government inquiry and at the inquest, it was established that the tunnel lights between Old Street and Moorgate were off as they should have been. Tunnel lighting was switched off after the passage of the first train and switched back on again before the passage of the last train. The only lights that were on were those at ceiling height in the crossover tunnel, two 300 watt bulbs at high level with shades. Other evidence suggests that Newson may have suffered a complex partial epiletic seizure i.e. his ‘lights’ were on, but there was nobody at home. Newson has been much maligned.

    Anthony Bright

    August 6, 2012 at 9:21 am

    • Hi,

      My name is Steve – are you Tony Bright a good friend of Del Lomas ?.
      Is Del still around, if so do you have an email for him.
      You might remember me – I think Tom scott was also in our circle.

      Hope you can help.

      Steve Tish

      Steve Tish

      October 15, 2014 at 12:54 am

  41. Further skulduggary about Moorgate is that the man relied upon by Ian McNaughton, Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways, Railway Inspectorate, Department of the Environment, relied upon the evidence provided to him by Terence Lowe, Associate Member of the Institute of Locomotive Engineers and right hand man to RSE chief Gordon Hafter. Lowe was involved in the design of the combined traction/brake controller for the C69 Suface Stock and 1972 Tube Stock.The design was flawed insofar that there was a position between motoring and braking whereby a driver could become incapacitated and the train would carry on driverless. The flaw was eventually recognized by the RSE and on the 1972 Mark 2 Tube Stock they fitted speed sensors to overcome the flaw. These were unreliable in service so they disconnected them.Henceforth, passengers travelling on the surface lines that used C69 and C77 Surface Stock, plus those using 1972 Tube Stock were at major risk, especially if a driver had applied the Rule and passed a signal at danger. As far as I am aware, C69/77 is still in service today. 1972 Tube Stock was eventually fitted with speed sensors that worked in service. Should there be a ‘Motorman Newson is innocent campaign’?

    Anthony Bright

    August 9, 2012 at 11:33 am

  42. I recall you mentioned that there might have been an unauthorised train change over , do you still think this could be the cause ? And it’s all part of some cover up ??

    flappo

    August 9, 2012 at 11:32 pm

    • flappo. There is very strong evidence that suggests there was an unauthorized train changeover by the crews of 2 duty (T272) and 3 duty (T273). This arose because the early spare guard was running on 1 duty (T271) because the rostered guard was absent. 2 duty rostered guard, Harris, was late for duty but also late for duty was 3 duty rostered guard, Catney. Therefore there was no guard available to cover the two latenesses. Catney had phoned from the cabin at Moorgate and arranged for the early spare motorman to cover bringing T273 into service and doing the first round trip for him. Catney then travelled to Drayton Park on T271. Harris had not yet made an appearance at this time. Harris then turned up at Moorgate and arranged for the additional early spare motorman to cover bringing T272 into service and down to Moorgate where he would take over. However, by the time Harris had made his presence known, T272 was too late to enter service at its proper time. So it was arranged for T273 to leave the depot in front of T272 and run in T272’s time until a changeover could take place. Because there was an engineer’s posession on the southbound platform road at Moorgate, where such changeovers had taken place in the past due to staff lateness (Drayton Park was well known as a ‘fiddles’ depot) the changeover eventually took place with the crew of T273 exchanging their train at Old Street northbound for Newson’s and Harris’s T272 at Old Street southbound. Newson and Harris took T273 (now T272) north to Drayton Park and the crew of T273 took T272 (now T273) south to Moorgate. At Drayton Park Newson changed ends and drove the former T273 south to Moorgate whereupon it crashed. By rights, the original T273 should never had been brought into service but because the crews had very good ‘cut-away’ times e.g. 1 duty book on 0615 book off 1415 cut-away 1000, that the crews ignored the defects and ran the trains. Even the train maintenance staff at Drayton Park had it cushy: book on 2300 book off 0700. Actual start time about 2000 cut-away before midnight. Neasden was sending rolling stock to Drayton Park that should never have been on a running road in the first place. LT management and the railway authorities knew all about has did ASLEF and the NUR. That’s why McNaughton was allowed to get away with suggesting that Newson may have deliberately crashed the train. Hopefully my long delayed publication on this matter will eventually put things right. Cover up? I should say so!

      Anthony Bright

      August 13, 2012 at 9:33 am

  43. Well i’ve said that all along the whole 37+years That’s why they have swept it under the carpet/floorboards, They know that they’re in the wrong, & don’t want to admit it, The lot of them should be hung!

    djmac

    August 14, 2012 at 12:25 pm

  44. This is what got me started on the whole thing ; http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1240625/Thirty-years-Britains-worst-Tube-crash-victims-son-asks-Did-suicidal-driver-kill-42-innocent-passengers.html

    Maybe Laurence Marks , several governments , the long standing civil servants – that are in real power for years but never elected – and the ever so slithering BBC will have to eat humble pie when the driver of a train that shouldn’t have been on the tracks on the first place is eventually exonerated for a terrible tragedy completely beyond his control ?

    ‘blame the dead guy , at least he won’t answer back’

    flappo

    August 14, 2012 at 1:42 pm

    • What annoys me the most is the role Neil Milligan, London Organizing Secretary, ASLEF, played in this. During 1974 the Elephant & Castle, Queen’s Park and Neasden branches of ASLEF were continually complaining to LT management about the very poor maintenance of 1938 Tube Stock. Milligan became involved in this at Railway Consultative Committee level. One of the main issues was the failure of the deadman’s handles to work properly. Instead of acting has a representative at the inquest, he should have been there has a witness. ASLEF and the NUR are just as cupable in the cover up. I think the mindset of all those involved in the cover up may be summed up by quoting the Car Examiners’ guide on how to deal with defects: ‘Always carry an oil can, a hammer and a condom. First try the oil can to fix a defect, if that does’nt work trying hitting the defective equipment with the hammer and if that does’nt work, fuck it!’

      Anthony Bright

      August 15, 2012 at 9:07 am

  45. Glad to see that we’re now getting somewhere about this after 37 years, Changeover trains? That’s got to be a coverup T273 & T272 Trains involved & with wrong staff operating, That’s Murder!

    djmac

    August 21, 2012 at 1:40 pm

  46. It’s a terrifying thought that to cover things up , to protect themselves and their own interests, people in power will resort to things likes this. So much for humanity and the value of human life.

    I wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to find that Motorman Newson was so bewildered by the brakes not working he quite literally froze in shock , panic and fear ! It may even have brought on the fit that many people think may have caused the crash ?

    That would probably explain why he seemed frozen and wide eyed when he drove past people on the platform. Maybe he was so utterly staggered that one minute the train was ambling along fine , back to buy his daughter a nice new car then all of a sudden the entire control system just stopped working and he was headed towards almost certain death !!?

    flappo

    August 22, 2012 at 4:28 am

    • With regards to the brakes, it should be borne in mind that 1938 Tube Stock had two interlinked braking systems. One was the Westinghouse Brake which, if a passenger or a guard pulled an emergency handle, would allow Trainline Air to escape to atmosphere causing air in the Auxillary Brake Reservoirs at 65psi to enter the brake cylinders via the Triple Valves and thus apply the brake shoes to the wheels. This would also happen if a driver used his Driver’s Brake Handle to apply the Westinghouse or he dropped the Deadman’s Handle. Prior to what became known as ‘pre-1938 Tube Stock’ the only brake available was the Westinghouse. The Electro-Pneumatic Brake, (EP) was introduced on this stock and allowed instant application of the brakes by a driver. This became the Service Brake which allowed faster and more frequent services and the Westinghouse became the Emergency Brake. However, in service it was found that the EP Brake caused wheel skid and subsequently flats (bits of rail metal welded to wheels by friction). So on the 1938 Tube Stock mercury filled retarders were fitted. If a driver applied full EP 55psi would be applied to the brake shoes but if the rate of retardation was too heavy one retarder would stop any more air being applied to the brake shoes and another would release air from the brake cylinders until the retardation forces slackened off. Air released from the brake cylinders would be via the Blow-Down Valves which, when the EP Brake equipment was switched on, allow the maximum of 55psi to be in the brake cylinders subject to retardation control. When the EP was switched off due to a defect, the Blow-Down Valves, now de-energised, would only allow a maximum of 30psi in the brake cylinders from the Westinghouse Brake, thus applying much less pressure to the brake shoes and also taking a longer time to apply. If the EP Brake failed in service a driver would get an audible warning in the form of pressurized air escaping into the driving cab. This would be accompanied by dust and fine oil droplets in the nostrils. Not a very pleasant experience! It is significant that Ian McNaughton never made any reference to the differences in braking pressures and the coroner, when questioning Car Examiner James, of Drayton Park Depot, caused James to change his evidence over the braking pressures. James had said that when his colleague was applying the EP on test there was 50psi on the brake cylinder gauges. The coroner said 30 and James then said 30. McNaughton and the coroner kept the braking pressures to that of a defective EP Brake and de-energised Blow-Down Valves. McNaughton maintained that there were no braking defects on the train! A failure of the EP Brake could be caused by a Driver’s Brake Valve Isolating Cock (DBVIC) opening in another cab by looseness or by someone deliberately opening one in another cab. The Guard of T272, Robert Harris, when asked by Counsel representing Mrs Newson at the inquest if he had opened the DBVIC in the rear cab replied “Why would I do that?” He answered a question with a question and never denied opening the rear DBVIC. He also feigned an ignorance of the braking systems that would never have allowed him to have been employed as a Guard/Emergency Motorman in the first place. Once again, much amiss about Moorgate! By the way, quite a few train maintenance staff made an extra few quid by stealing mercury from the retarders and selling it to scrappies.

      Anthony Bright

      August 23, 2012 at 10:40 am

  47. Going back to the 2 railworkers who were on platform 9 Were they the ones who were at Old Street when the train changeovers took place & got the train in front to Moorgate just before Newson’s train being platform 10 closed What were they doing there? Guilty ? Waiting to see the response of the train’s movements? If so they should be Fully questioned again & if found Guilty,They should be Hung!Mas Murderer’s.

    djmac

    August 26, 2012 at 5:07 am

  48. Through the latest reports they say that we’ll get the full report, verdict/truth published in 2051, Well that’s out of order, we need the answers now not in 2051, No wonder UK/GB ‘s in a mess, Do you honestly think the public will wait that long GET A LIFE! Do the job properly & now,

    djmac

    August 26, 2012 at 11:26 am

  49. If someone special eg, A Prime Minister or a member of the Royal Family was on board that train Questions would’of been asked & Answered Immediately so why not this tragedy? Just under 40 years time 2051, Far too long to wait as most of us will too be in our Graves! Answers now not 2051!

    djmac

    August 30, 2012 at 12:58 pm

    • djmac. My eventual publication will hopefully give all the necessary information to discredit the then Government assertion that Newson deliberately crashed the train. The two LT staff on platform nine at the time of the crash were not involved in the cause of the crash in any way.

      Anthony Bright

      September 3, 2012 at 9:16 am

      • MR Bright , So you would stick up for a bunch of liars,crooks, who take our money & do very little to help, look at what Blair’s done? A person who should be hung,Labour is the first to cause trouble,& that’s why it’s taken 37.5 years so far to get some answers,Light has now begun to show.

        djmac

        September 3, 2012 at 12:52 pm

    • djmac. There were six members of staff involved in the unauthorized train changeover at Old Street station. Number two duty rostered crew MM Newson and GD Harris, number three duty crew MM Gladding and GD Catney and number five duty rostered early spare motorman, MM Bray. The sixth member of staff was Relief Signalman Walter Wade, Moorgate Signal Cabin. I believe that Newson was acting under pressure from Harris, Bray and Wade to take part in the said changeover. The only way for the crew of T272 running in the time of T273 and vice versa for the crew of T273 running in the time of T272 to communicate would be via Wade and Bray. On the trip before the fatal one, Newson had pulled into Drayton Park station. MM Bray then climbed into the south end cab and told Newson over the train intercom to shut down but not blow down. Bray then opened up in what was now the leading cab. Harris then went into the leading cab and Newson acted has guard in the rear carriage down to Old Street while Bray drove the train south. Meanwhile, Gladding drove T273 north to Old Street while Catney worked the doors from the leading car. When both trains had arrived at Old Street, Newson and Catney exchanged the guards keys in the north end cross passage and Newson went into the cab of the northbound train and Catney went to the guard’s position in the rear car of the southbound train. Harris left the leading cab of the southbound train and, via the south end cross passage, went to the guard’s position on the northbound train. The northbound train now became T272 and the southbound train became T273. Both train set numbers were now running in their correct order and time. Gladding drove the new T272 north to Drayton Park with Newson beside him and Bray took Gladding’s place as driver of T273. At Drayton Park Gladding took an early meal relief and Newson and Harris changed ends. It is very likely that whilst they did so Newson took the opportunity to berate Harris with industrial strengh language. Harris may have taken exception to this and may have manipulated the Westinghouse Brake handle on his Guard’s Gangway so that when Newson used the Westinghouse at Old Street Harris’s manipulation caused the train to stop short. On the approach to Moorgate Harris may have opened the rear DBVIC to give Newson an unpleasant EP blow which may have triggered a complex partial epiletic seizure in Newson. Whatever did happen, there certainly needs to be a new inquiry. Justice has certainly been obstructed.

      Anthony Bright

      September 5, 2012 at 8:54 am

  50. D272 was the faulty train as it was brought in from Neasden, Why did’nt it go straight to the Depot at Drayton Park instead of being put into service & crashed as they’ve said It was Faulty That’s a Prosecution & Man Slaughter Case, They’ve also stated that Guard Harris & Newson were arguing so Harris jiggered the equipment as REVENGE tO GET HIS OWN BACk is that true?

    djmac

    September 28, 2012 at 12:55 pm

    • djmac makes a very strong point there – what DID happen to the train that was supposedly wrecked beyond belief – but they still somehow managed to work out that the brakes etc weren’t faulty…

      That doesn’t add up , does it ?

      Flappo

      September 28, 2012 at 11:40 pm

  51. What did happen to the train & the remains of it when it was taken away out of the Tunnel & Platform? Does anyone have any photo’s?

    djmac

    September 28, 2012 at 1:44 pm

    • A non-official photo of the rear of the trailing car of the front 3 car set, (10175), is in existence but it only shows the damage caused to the lower part of the cab where it was rough shunted as the train came to a sudden stop. I know from a now retired electrician at Neasden depot who had to take additional lights and cables to Moorgate that the remains of the train were taken to the lifting shop at Neasden where there were compalints from the staff about the smell. It is possible to track what hapened to the train after that by using the records of the London Underground Society who monitor all LUL stock movements.

      chris2455

      October 11, 2012 at 11:41 pm

  52. My father died in this train crash, and its only the last 4 years that something in me has made me want to know the real truth. I certainly dont believe it was an accident. I believe there is definitely a cover up and that the report is an absolute joke. Like people have said, if this happend today, an investigation of this magnitude would take ages. Dianas crash still leaves things unanswered and it so reminds me of wrong doing just like here. I will be dead in 2051 so will never know what really happend. I would love to have this investigation reopened,but can that really happen? the evidence was burried/burned, so we will never know.

    George

    September 29, 2012 at 6:04 am

  53. Apparently the train went to a scrap yard for a bit, then it was burried somewhere. Id like to know where it is now too.

    As for pics, they are probably forbidden to be seen til 2051

    George

    September 29, 2012 at 12:35 pm

  54. Yes a lot of us will be too, Someone should start off something like a Partition to get as many people as possible to agree that 2051 is far too long to wait, We need the Verdicts etc today,That’s what’s wrong with Britain we’re too slow.

    djmac

    September 29, 2012 at 2:36 pm

  55. It should be made LAW to show the proof, Evidence etc so that maybe others could come forward with Vital Information to which may help matters, problems etc imagine you’re doing a jigsaw puzzle & you need certain pieces to complete it. Wake up out there!

    djmac

    September 30, 2012 at 8:22 am

    • The relatives and friends of the Hillsborough victims appear to have won a fresh inquest into the cause of the victims deaths and formerly withheld/undisclosed evidence will be entered into evidence. The same should apply to Moorgate. However, certain incriminating evidence concerning the Moorgate disaster is likely to have been destroyed. Nevertheless, the fact that the available evidence, when properly scrutinized gives reason to believe that the staff involved colluded in a cover up that also involved the then Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways and a Queen’s Coroner should be grounds for a senior judge led inquiry. As for what happened to the train, it was eventually scrapped in the usual way. A really galling matter is that Gordon Hafter, Chief Rolling Stock Engineer, was awarded an OBE for the way he dealt with Moorgate i.e. Motorman Newson was the sole person responsible and London Transport Railways and all its other staff were absolved from any blame. The OBE was awarded for ensuring that outcome. Never mind the trains being poorly maintained and parts being stolen from them by RSE staff to sell privately as scrap. Hafter kept that well covered up. The evidence that needs to be disclosed are the statements made by all the LT staff involved including the first statement made by Guard Harris at Wood Street police station on the morning of the crash. George should print off all the comments on this site and take them to his MP in the hope that his MP will ask questions in the House concerning the truth about Moorgate.

      Anthony Bright

      October 6, 2012 at 8:22 am

  56. Hi Anthony, have you a contact number for a chat? Email me : g_mackmurdie@hotmail.com

    Cheers

    George

    October 6, 2012 at 10:07 am

  57. Ive just read that it took a jury just over an hour to return an accidental verdict on this incident. What a joke, how can people decide in that short space of time the true events of this horrific crash.

    George

    October 9, 2012 at 2:50 am

  58. Well that’s definately a backhander job, A Cover Up! That’s why “Hanging” should be brought back Jobs would be dealt with properly.or take the consequences.No wonder we’re in a right mess, Remember the old saying Eye for Eye, Tooth for Tooth,

    djmac

    October 9, 2012 at 12:07 pm

  59. I have never beleived that this was a “pure” accident. A senior official at the group of stations I worked at on the UndergrounD told me that he had known Les Newson and he would never have deliberately crashed the train. From the report it seems that the leading half of the train had it’s brakes isolated as the cocks on the trailer car, which carried one of the two compressors were isolated. Also, what about the seal on the governor control cut-out switch which apparently had it’s seal missing but was in the on position? We only have Gordon Hafters word for that and if the trains were in the state it is alleged it would not surprise me if the leading set of cars did have the switch in the off position which would enable the train to power-up without sufficient air in the system.

    A notice was put up at New Cross depot which at the time was running 38’s on the East London line, to the effect that the train had been defective and was taken down by agreement with LT and the Trade Union.

    When the LT Museum was attempting to put it’s train of 1938 stock back to “main-line” use there was a problem with the deadman in that when it was released it did not apply the brakes as quickly as it should. The fault was traced to a small-bore pipe which feeds air from the deadman to the valve which operates the brakes. It was apparently so corrroded that air would not pass properly. These trains were known for condensation in the air system which caused water and oil to collect in the pipes. Piers Connor’s book on the stock refers to this problem and says that at Morden depot a 45 gallon drum on wheels was run under the trains to collect the water when they were serviced. So it could be that the pipe, crushed in the accident was the cause.

    Mention has been made that the operation at Drayton Park was a shambles and two incidents I know of back this up. One involves a stock transfer from Highgate Wood depot to Drayton Park via the Northern Heights where a three car train was taken to Drayton Park only to find that the “A” & “D” ends were facing the wrong way and it had to be taken back to be exchanged for a train facing the right way round, i.e: one which had not been round the Kennington loop. The other concerns a train being transferred from Neasden to Drayton Park via the Widened Lines with a battery loco at each end. Whilst waiting for clearance onto the Circle line at Baker Street the driver was told that the rear battery loco had come uncoulpled from the rest of the train and had come to a stop in the tunnel just south of Finchely Road.

    My then next door neighbours cousin died in the crash and for her sake it would be nice to know the truth.

    chris2455

    October 11, 2012 at 8:17 am

    • Your reply is difficult for me to understand, having no knowledge of these trains, but I take it you are implying mechanical failure of some kind. I could accept this, only the book has been closed on the accident until 2051 I understand. That usually means they are protecting the main protagonist and his/her family from harassment, in this case Leslie Newson. If it were a case of employer liability why would London Transport not have confessed. Other employers have had to ‘bite the bullet’ why should they be protected.

      barry waterfield

      October 11, 2012 at 11:55 am

  60. Newson would have been dead by now let alone 2051. But guard Harris wouldn’t be….

    Maybe the powers that be know a lot more about what REALLY happened than they are letting on

    Flappo

    October 12, 2012 at 12:36 am

  61. It should be borne in mind that the inquest jury returned accidental death verdicts for the forty-two passengers and also for MM Newson. If LT had admitted that the trains were poorly maintained and that their staff were poorly supervised then an accident of this type would have been foreseen. Also relevant is that the train maintenance staff at Neasden Depot were too busy stealing the lead acid batteries, brass screws and handles, and the mercury from the braking systems of the 1938 Tube Stock to have any time to do any maintenance. Many of the six – weekly examinations (which used to be three – weekly) and the yearly lifts never took place and records were falsified. As for the five – yearly Heavy Overhaul, the leading unit of the crash train was still running around without one after eight years. Evidence suggests that upon its eventual return from Drayton Park it was going to be plundered before being sent for scrap. As I have written before, it was scrapped in service instead. Other evidence suggests that as well as the brakes on the trailer car being isolated, the motors on the leading car were cut out. This would have the effect of when going north uphill, the rear motor and trailer would have been hauled by the semi – permanent coupling between the trailer and the unit’s leading motor car. Said couplings were not designed for such abuse and any train that had any of its motors or brakes cut out would have to be immediately taken out of service and driven at reduced speed to ease the loading on the said couplings. Furthermore, to lower the amount of any compensation paid, the personal effects of the dead would have been searched to ascertain if they had valid authority to travel i.e. ticket, pass or written authority to travel. If not they were then classified as trespassers any any amount of compensation would be greatly reduced. Corporate manslaughter legislation did not exist at the time of the Moorgate Disaster. If it had, perhaps Gordon Hafter would have been banged up instead of receiving an OBE which was awarded for orchestrating a perfect cover up. With regards to the book being closed until 2051, this only applies to the statements made by staff and others involved. Any incriminating written evidence would have been destroyed before the inquest took place and where necessary, other evidence falsified. The brakes being cut out on the trailer car was only disclosed because LT was not sure if a member of staff had written in a note book that they had been cut out on a date prior to the collision.

    Anthony Bright

    October 12, 2012 at 7:15 am

    • A very interesting and thought-provoking comment, Anthony. I think this is especially true in the light of what is coming to the surface in respect to the dreadful Hillsborough Stadium tragedy all those years ago (deliberately misleading statements, statements which were later altered to reflect the ‘official’ version of events and those in authority committing perjury).

      Shaun Crowther

      October 13, 2012 at 1:33 am

      • I hadn’t made the Hillsborough connection. Deception by those in a powerful position seems to have been rife for years. In view of this and the fact that the accident remains ‘unresolved’ perhaps a new public inquiry should be convened.

        barry waterfield

        October 13, 2012 at 8:45 am

      • Hello Barry,

        It just seemed the right connection to make especially as the real truth is now slowly coming out about the Hillsborough incident. It annoys and infuriates me to think that certain police officials were economical with the truth including one who now occupies a very senior position in one of the Yorkshire forces.

        It is also extremely maddening that certain documents are to be locked away until (I believe) 2051 when all those involved in this case will be dead and buried – provided, of course, these sensitive documents have not already been shredded by some unscrupulous civil servant London Transport official.

        This also brings to mind certain documents and files in the JFK assassination which were locked away until 2039 when (I would assume) all those involved in the biggest cover-up of all time will be dead – if they aren’t already.

        It seems these cover-ups – be it JFK, Moorgate or Hillsborough – are an integral part of human life ……

        Shaun Crowther

        October 14, 2012 at 6:51 am

  62. Yes i agree with most of the recent comments It’s time that the electric chair or hanging was re-introduced or even an item in Berwick -upon-Tweed called the Stocks. specially the recent cases, The 5 year old child April,When are our sick government going to wake up! & not forgetting the 2 police women in Manchester? The whole report sounds like (London Transport) should be held responsible for having faulty trains & Equipment in use Not the Motorman Newson. (He should of refused to operate the train but obviously did’nt know what was going on or being SET UP.

    djmac

    October 13, 2012 at 1:47 pm

  63. I can also remember that platform 10 was closed that morning, For what reason ? It certainly was’nt for maintenance!

    djmac

    October 15, 2012 at 12:15 pm

    • Platform road 10 was closed for a period to allow building work to be carried out. This closure was planned in advance and the Working Timetable (WTT) was changed to allow for single platform road working. It is very likely that if both platform roads were open as before, the evidence suggested unofficial changeover at Old Street would not have been necessary, and Newson would have still been driving the actual train that he prepared and not the duff one long awaiting return to Neasden. Newson was a Barking Depot man where everything was done in accordance with the Rule Book. When he travelled for his job (i.e. promotion from Guard/Motorman to Motorman) to Drayton Park Depot, he became a fish out of water and died before his return to Barking. He was the forty-third victim of scrap metal thieves and Rule Book dodgers all due to an entirely corrupt management in league with the relevant Trades Unions to spare the Labour Government extreme embarassment. Nothings changed then!

      Anthony Bright

      October 25, 2012 at 9:36 am

  64. So it’s definately a “MANSLAUGHTER” Case

    djmac

    October 25, 2012 at 12:11 pm

  65. Well does’nt it prove a point LABOUR is just a complete waste of time, Louts, Scumbags, The case should be reopened & the Culprits should be found & Hung for causing Manslaughter, But that’s Barking Labrador’s for you

    djmac

    November 12, 2012 at 1:17 pm

    • I don’t think a tube train accident can be attributed to political motives. However partizan you are that has to be stretching it a little bit.

      barry waterfield

      November 12, 2012 at 4:49 pm

  66. Why not Someone got the Hillsborough one through , So why not this one? They are paid to do a job like everyone else

    djmac

    November 13, 2012 at 1:55 pm

    • I notice one of two people wanting to reopen the Moorgate inquirey or even have a fresh one. There would be no advantage to this. If we could prove without doubt that the Driver has suffered an injustice that might be one thing, but we can’t.The whole thing is better left to history now. One inquirey should be enough. If on the other hand you are suggesting that the process of inquirey should be tightened up then I would agree with you.

      barry waterfield

      November 13, 2012 at 7:11 pm

      • The Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways stated that the train was not defective and that no other member of LT staff was responsible for the collision and that Newson was solely responsible and may have deliberately crashed the train. Evidence suggests that the said statement is deeply flawed and may have been made simply to cover up the extreme failings of the Labour Party and Trades Unions controlled authorities. A fresh open inquiry with no withheld evidence would certainly not be to the advantage of the Labour Party and the Trades Unions. I cannot think of anyone else who would be disadvantaged by such an inquiry.

        Anthony Bright

        November 23, 2012 at 9:38 am

      • Thank you for your reply.

        My point is, that nothing would be gained by reopening the case. The Underground isn’t even under the same management as it was at the time of the crash, and the Labour Party from those days doesn’t really exist anymore except in name. My own feeling is that the driver fell asleep and probably woke in the last split second. You do realise that a thirty year old man would be very nearly seventy years old by now.Speaking personally I would not want to reopen everything again and I think many survivors feel the same way.This accident has left big scars and big scars are best left to heal overtime without further disturbance.

        barry waterfield

        November 23, 2012 at 12:29 pm

  67. Amongst all our public institutions there is criminality, corruption, incompetence and negligence. Those involved in war crimes have been brought to justice many years after the event so why should those involved in perverting the course of justice escape justice? Moorgate is symptomatic of the contempt that politicians and senior officials of all public bodies have held for the public since the end of the Second World War. As an example where were the Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction that Tony Blair and his chief sycophant Alistair Campbell cited as a reason to take Britain into an illegal war? Look at the sex abuse scandals engulfing our public bodies now coming to light. Justice must be sought.

    Anthony Bright

    November 29, 2012 at 10:13 am

  68. Hillsborough (Football) has been looked into, So why not this one? Don’t the louts take public transport into account, or do they deal with it if it’s a nice little earner in their greedy pockets? No matter what the reason/excuse is They should deal with this as an Electric Chair or a Stocks/Hanging matter for it to drag on for so long, Who’s going to be around in the stated year of 2051, It should be done NOW!

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    December 24, 2012 at 2:27 pm

    • Several people have called for an enquiry in recent times and I too have given it thought, but I think, on further reflection, that if you had been involved, you would not want to go there again. To say that the experience was like a hundred years in the trenches would probably upset the soldier but to my mind the comparison must come close to the reality.Consider also that a lot of people have long since died and most of the rest are quite old. When you think that a boy of twenty would be nearly sixty today I suggest it puts an inquiry into perspective. Who would we be doing it for? True we could get the driver exonerated but I doubt it. I think it would turn out to be ”cause unknown” at the best. Sadly my view is that the driver did go to sleep and sadly he took forty others off to dreamland with him. I think the rocking motion of the train, the warmth and the dark was too toxic for a tired brain. He wasn’t a murderer, he was a human being as am I and we human beings make mistakes, for some it is of no consequence for others it is less fortunate. Please consider well before bringing this horrible accident out into the light of day once more. If it ever does surface again I hope it’s when I’m dead.

      barry waterfield

      December 24, 2012 at 5:28 pm

      • Well I lost my father to this nightmare and feel robbed of any kind of truth. I myself would like the investigation to be re examined !

        George

        February 25, 2013 at 2:43 pm

  69. On the day of this disaster I was working for a company based close to Highbury and Islington tube station. The head office was based in the city, I had an a reason to go to the head office that morning. In those days I used to come in from Essex, leave my car at Forrest Road tube Walthamstow, on that morning the traffic was a bit heavier than normal and I was few minutes later than I usually was getting to work. I arrived at the office picked up a package I was due to deliver and went to catch my train into the city.

    I waited on the platform on that slightly chilly damp morning. I cursed my luck as I watched a train leave the station. By now it was about a 1/4 to nine, and I knew that I would not make the city office for nine as I had planned. Usually there was a train arriving every few minutes at the station, but that day there seemed to be a longer delay than normal for a train to arrive. There was no information coming over the speaker system, so I just waited. After about ten minutes I becomes aware of the smell of dust emanating from the damp tunnel in front of me. This quickly turned to a thick cloud of black dust and the acrid smell of what seemed like smoke. It was then that we were asked to evacuate the station as “there was a problem on the line”.

    It was not until later that day did I learn of the true extent of the disaster that had gone on before me. My late start to the day may well have saved my life.

    Nigel Perry

    January 5, 2013 at 4:18 pm

  70. Drivers often lose concentration and become almost mesmerised by the light of their cab travelling in front of them in the darkness. They are usually snapped out of it by the oncoming light of a station appearing in the distance. I have read of two people closely involved with the aftermath of the crash who believe the driver simply daydreamed his way into the crash and didn’t snap out of it in time to react.

    Steve

    January 10, 2013 at 7:55 am

    • Dear Steve. I believe that could quite well be the case. I certainly don’t swollow the suicide theory. It was an early morning train, warm, in the dark, with a rocking motion, all the ingrediants so often used to send a baby to sleep and I think it worked it’s magic on the driver.Unfortunately forty others went back to fairy land with him.

      barry waterfield

      January 10, 2013 at 10:46 am

      • I absolutely agree, people have daydreamed or slept their way into all sorts of things. It might be as simple as that. I don’t think suicide can be discounted though, a good percentage of suicides are impulsive spur-of-the-moment decisions, we know this from survivors. And the people commenting on here about mechanical failures and such, I dunno, but I do know that governments have gone to great lengths to cover up regulatory malfeasance in other disasters, so it’s possible. As always I’m amazed that this post still gets so much traffic and comments, thanks to all for both. — Doug

        unitedcats

        January 10, 2013 at 11:23 am

      • I agree with you being an ex guard on the northern line a. Warm train and a darkness and rocking motion sleep or heavi eyes happens and this sadly could have happened and one can still fall asleep with eyes open but what I was taught at school with the deadman if you relaxed the deadman automatically springs up and the brakes are applied but then if the guard was messing about at the back then if the deadman was in operation the brakes couldn’t apply so where was the guard when all this was sadly happening.

        David banks

        April 13, 2016 at 3:26 am

  71. Look at incidents that have occurred recently, This case is definately being forgotten about, Today’s problems all boil down to money, Yeah Money in the wrong pockets as usual or spent on crap, Wars Abroad, Well we all know who to blame for that don’t we! British need to get a life! Well our Politicians do as they certainly don’t live on our planet, It just goes as greed.Feed the Greedy Not the Needy! 2051 for the true verdict for Moorgate to come out is far too long to wait, Answers Now NOT in 2051 What’s the reason? We all know It’s a Coverup, & too scared to face up to it, They all deserve to be Heavily Prosecuted or Hung,

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    February 3, 2013 at 3:03 pm

  72. They say in the comments that Motorman Leslie Newson had to change trains at Old Street Why,? Was he stitched up ? & a coverup for the Guard (Unsupervised R.Harris) to be late that morning?

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    February 24, 2013 at 8:56 am

    • I must confess that I didn’t know that he changed at ”Old Street”, I thought the train was straight through. I doubt he was ”stitched up”. It was an accident and accidents happen due to human error or misfortune. It’s my belief that he did go to sleep but I don’t blame him for that, we’re all fallible, in the dark, a warm rocking train and a tired man hardly in the prime of life anymore. I can well see it might happen and I hope God is forgiving as we all must be.

      barry waterfield

      February 24, 2013 at 12:27 pm

      • Can’t see how you keep referring to this as an accident. The driver went over a crossing at 35mph instead of 15mph. People have given evidence they were thrown. If the driver was not quite with it, then this would have woken him up. Then there’s the guard. He was wondering around looking for a newspaper. If the guard had applied the brakes then even knocking a few mph off may have saved a few life’s.

        George

        February 25, 2013 at 2:48 pm

      • I do agree over the guard, he seems to have been incompetent, almost criminally so.

        I think when I refer to something as an accident I mean that there was no premeditation to it. Any other cause such as faulty equipment or worse still a deliberate contrivance would not come under such a definition. I like to assume that it was driver error, either in the fact that he went to sleep, or that he lost rack of where he was, which I have read elsewhere is possible. I do believe that sometimes it is impossible to be sure what happened but whatever the case I do not accept the notion that London Transport were using unsafe rolling stock. I don’t believe that they would ever do that.

        barry waterfield

        February 25, 2013 at 5:24 pm

  73. Through reports,comments stated that the train numbers were not running in order, eg 271, 273, instead of 271,272,273, & also there was a small argument between Newson & Harris,

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    February 25, 2013 at 1:01 pm

    • Do you know what this argument was about. Could it have been relevant.

      barry waterfield

      February 27, 2013 at 1:51 pm

  74. The book “Anatomy of a Rail Disaster” written by Sally Holloway is at least 95%+ true as to what happened that morning as i read it in a London Library but was’nt allowed to buy it, Pity I can’t get a copy of it now as the light begins to shine in the tunnels as the facts are beginning to come out at last Why wait for the verdict in 2051 It should be now!

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    February 27, 2013 at 1:36 pm

    • Could you enlighten us as to the content of the book or is it just a resume of the facts as the public know them.

      barry waterfield

      February 27, 2013 at 1:52 pm

  75. The book i’m referring to is “Anatomy of a Rail Disaster” Headed Moorgate, Written by Sally Holloway, (This book you can see on the Images pages titled Moorgate ) I believe it is like Gold dust to get hold of but keep looking, It will be Worth It, A true story of putting the pieces together & over 200 pages long.

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    March 3, 2013 at 1:57 pm

  76. 38 years ago & we still wait for answers, 28.2.1975,(Friday) Train D272 at 8.46.

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    March 3, 2013 at 2:00 pm

  77. Surely somebody somewhere must know something about this story or even may have some pictures of the train, If there are some then please forward them on

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    April 10, 2013 at 2:37 pm

  78. For information, on Saturday my work was completed and a memorial is now up for those who died at Moorgate. It is in Finsbury Square and looks brilliant. A ceremony will take place at 11am on Sunday 28 July 2013 for all those who wish to attend. Any further details required or if you have anything about this disaster that you want to tell me for the book then please email me shipwreckdata@yahoo.co.uk

    Richard Jones

    June 3, 2013 at 5:08 am

  79. The driver had £ 700.00 in his pocket. Do you suppose the real reason could have been blackmail.

    barry waterfield

    June 3, 2013 at 3:42 pm

    • The driver had £273 in his pocket to buy his daughter a car that evening. The money belonged to his daughter and he was looking after it. She told me that herself.

      Richard Jones

      June 4, 2013 at 2:17 am

  80. Why is the memorial in Finsbury Square which is in the borough of Islington and not closer to Moorgate station which is within the City of London? Why Sunday the 28th of July?

    Anthony Bright

    June 5, 2013 at 7:01 am

    • The memorial was rejected by London Underground on more than one occasion for 38 years and the closest I could have it was just up the road in Finsbury Square. After speaking to the council they put up a fence and re turfed the area and were very supportive of remembering this disaster. I wish I could have put it closer but alas some people wont be persuaded. Sunday 28 July is the closest date we could do as the council wanted it up as soon as the money was raised in case the protesters came back again that trashed the area last summer. Once it was up then it was up. If I could have had it for the next 28th Feb then it would have been better but that is 9 months away and by then everybody will have seen it anyway.

      Rich Jones

      June 5, 2013 at 8:06 am

  81. Does this mean that someone has woken up & things are moving at last, Maybe the 2051 case may be brought nearer considering 90% of us won’t be living then,The sooner the better,

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    June 10, 2013 at 2:06 pm

  82. The only closed documents are the inquest statements made by the witnesses who attended the inquest. I have scrutinized the transcripts of the inquest and it would certainly be much better if I had access to the actual statements but, I have still managed to find numerous discrepancies which strongly suggest a cover up. ASLEF and the then NUR certainly did not kick up a stink about the crash and in return operating staff received the nine-point pay plan and shorter hours. A deal is a deal………

    Anthony Bright

    June 15, 2013 at 8:10 am

  83. As ever there is heaps of speculation and conjecture here. The fact is the event happened a long time ago and in all probability the true cause will never be known. For a competent view and facts read this; http://www.railwaysarchive.co.uk/documents/DoE_Moorgate1975.pdf

    Paul

    September 4, 2013 at 3:28 pm

  84. Yes I have read the report & also Sally’s book (Sally Holloway, Anatomy of a rail disaster MOORGATE) to which her story I would give her 100% true, I would like to thank Richard Jones who has done a great job for getting a memorial put in nearby Finsbury Circus,This man definately deserves a medal from our Government & HRH Well Done Richard, All we need now is the whole truth to come out now & not in 2051as has been stated.LT should be HEAVILY PROSECUTED for using faulty trains.

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    September 15, 2013 at 4:09 am

  85. What i mean by using faulty trains is If you read the statements You will see that carriage 012263 or 012167 was leaking fluid at the time of the accident & also the train was in a siding & was brought into service (illegally) Some evidence here to state that Leslie Newson was not to blame dont you think?

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    September 16, 2013 at 1:07 pm

  86. It was also stated that the guard had a run in with the driver for being late so he made some sort of revenge to get his own back,LT broke the rules by not having the guard supervised, this should be a prosecution, Why does’nt LT Admit to that, Hiding Evidence proves your Guilty.

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    September 24, 2013 at 1:54 pm

  87. I would like to thank Richard Jones for all he’s done The Finsbury Circus memorial all the hard work he’s put in to help us all, Well Done You deserve a Special Medal from HRH The Queen, The Lazy Government, & Spcially LT for doing their dirty work for them, A Massive Round of Applause should go out to Richard Jones

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    September 27, 2013 at 12:25 pm

  88. according to a poster on this yt video – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kafhaPnrXBY

    this is what happened & the london underground drivers supposedly agree..

    “No big deal – it regularly happened.
    The Northern City Line was a 5 station (4 underground and identical-looking) shuttle. Most tube drivers consider it most likely that, after 3 round trips early morning alone in a dark little cab, and being pre-occupied maybe about the car he was planning to buy, he got disorientated and when coming in and realising he’d overshot, chose to carry on to the next station being confused as to where he was. They call it “running out of railway”

    i tried linking him to this thread but he thinks we’re all conspiracy nut jobs

    flappo

    September 28, 2013 at 5:35 am

  89. Well Done to Richard Jones,Maybe he can get the lazy B’s to get their fingers out & give the General Public
    the truth & true answers as to what did go wrong that morning instead of waiting to 2051 when the TRUTH WILL BE ISSUED, Who will be around then? We need answers yesterday not in 2051,Heavily Prosecute the whole lot of them or send them to Berwick-upon-Tweed where they can all get STOCKED! at the Town Hall.

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    October 4, 2013 at 12:59 pm

  90. First – my sincere sympathies to all of you who had friends and loved ones affected by this.

    I lived in London as a child (I am American – my father’s job took us there). We had been in the country for less than a week when the Moorgate crash occurred. I have been interested in how it happened and what happened ever since.

    One inconsistency I have noticed is in the various accounts of exactly how the first 3 cars ended up above and below one another. Some reports state that the 2nd car rode under the first, others have it the other way around. Another account states that the front of the 3rd car split lengthwise as opposed to overriding the 2nd car. Does anyone have any insight as to the reasons for this? Or was the wreckage just too tangled for those in the recovery effort to be certain which parts of each car were which?

    I also ran across a leaked photo of the front of the driver’s cab before Mr Newson’s body had been removed. I have no idea who posted the photo and it was taken off the internet within less than an hour. From this photo, it is obvious that accounts of the leading cab being crushed nearly flat are completely inaccurate. Also, the dead man’s handle appeared to be centered, and was pushed upward at an approximately 90-degree angle from the controller, through the front window of the cab.

    I would appreciate any insight.

    Mark

    October 17, 2013 at 9:41 am

  91. Whoever has the photo mentioned above, They should bring it back on to show more Evidence so that the case may be brought forward instead of waiting for the results in 2051 to which we all may be dead by then, The Picture was removed within a few hours why? & who by? Another LT Coverup? The General Public have a right to see the mangled mess so that points of view can be made, If someone important was on that train eg, Prime Minister, The Pope, or a Royal member, the case would of been dealt with & solved properly, So what’s the Holdup? It’s NO Good filing it away under the carpet & to forget about it. TIME COSTS MONEY! 1 Thing these Parliament lout’s don’t relise, Answers TODAY PLEASE!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    November 10, 2013 at 9:50 am

  92. Does anyone know how to contact Laurence Marks. During October I sent two letters, one by post, one by hand, to a C/O address that was listed in his Who’s Who entry of 2012. It appears that this C/O address ceased seven months previously. The reason I ask is because in his 2010 MailOnline article, he refers to ‘stealing’, with the implied consent of the coroner, the inquest transcripts which he duly had copied and then returned to the coroner’s open safe. Mr Marks stated that he did this four weeks after the crash. If the period of time is correct, then Mr Marks borrowed and copied the witness statements for the then coming inquest which started on the 14th April, 1975. It is these documents, amongst others, that are closed until at least 2051. I have scrutinized the inquest transcript on several occasions, and I would very much like to scrutinize the witness statements.

    Anthony Bright

    November 28, 2013 at 10:54 am

  93. Reading the above report from A.Bright 28.11.2013, This geiser Marks or whoever should be prosecuted for leaking information don’t you think?

    DJ McDougall

    November 28, 2013 at 2:47 pm

  94. Reading through all the comments & others left on other pages It proves the point that the driver L.Newson was set up using a dodgy train, Why was it in service when it should of been left in the siding’s awaiting for repairs?

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    December 4, 2013 at 2:22 pm

  95. The train D272 was in under repairs/service the night before Where’s the Evidence to show that it had been cleared to resume serving the network, I believe the train did not have the lollipop marker to show Clearance, Instant Legal Proceedings should be taken for that!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    December 10, 2013 at 3:18 pm

  96. Come on WE WANT ANSWERS NOW NOT 2051 WAKE UP!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    January 9, 2014 at 10:22 am

  97. Yes Friday 28th February 1975 & also this year 2014 is a Friday This day it will be 39 years since the disaster on Platform 9 at Moorgate, Well lets hope someone will do something here on this day to get the verdict/truth to be printed The Station should hold a few minutes Silence at 8.46.am to show some respect that they care.

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    February 16, 2014 at 8:17 am

  98. Reading through all the comments I see that there has’nt been any replies from the driver’s wife & family, It proves that they don’t want to get involved why? Surely that would help matters to get this case answered & finally closed don’t you think? Obviously there’s a cover up somewhere along the lines!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    February 22, 2014 at 1:06 pm

  99. I just wanted to say hi, new here obviously.. look forward to contributing to the community http://www.imadummyzblog.com

    GeLync

    March 4, 2014 at 5:52 pm

  100. Hi, Welcome to the postings Gelync What do you think so far if you read all 146 Comments, Do you agree that there’s been a Massive big cover up? & that we the general public deserve the Truth & proper answers now! NOT IN 2051,We’re in the 21st Century Not the 19th, So Come on Wake up & NOW!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    March 13, 2014 at 12:21 pm

  101. […] more opinions about the Moorgate Disaster @Doug’s Dark Underworld. The comments make compelling […]

  102. Yes we’re now in April 2014, 39 years after this crash! Has’nt anyone got a brain out there?LT certainly don’t They haven’t even got the decency to admit they’re at fault & won’t apologise either, What needs to be done is to recall everyone back round the table & to do the job properly,Waving the magic wand days are over.Hafter? The one who got a medal from the Queen should be taken away from him as he lied over the case in the 1st place. The driver was definately “SET UP” that morning.This should now be a “Hanging” case, Then this may get Britain to wake up at last, If you do wrong! then you suffer for it! Wait for something to happen then Panic by scratching your head wondering what to do, Those days have gone.

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    April 6, 2014 at 7:20 am

  103. It’s a damn disgrace to let this case to drag on for so long, They don’t realise that “TIME COSTS MONEY” & no doubt at the Public’s Expense too,We the Public ask questions? then we are entitled to get Answers NOW Not 2051 as has been published, No Wonder Britain is a sick place to live, The Government should live on the Dole payment & get treated the same way as them £100 a week & that if your lucky!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    May 25, 2014 at 12:28 pm

  104. Click on to ‘The Moorgate Underground Train Crash – YouTube. You will experience Gordon Hafter and Terry Lowe claiming that there was nothing whatsoever wrong with the train. They took all the braking system from the crash train and fitted it onto a non-crashed train and found that it all worked perfectly well. In this day and age they would not have been let anywhere near the crash train, potential prosecution for corporate manslaughter being highly likely. Back then they could cover up what they liked and discussed how to do it over lunch with members of the Railway Inspectorate. My publication revealing certain matters will hopefully be ready for the 40th.

    Anthony Bright

    May 29, 2014 at 10:51 am

    • I have been following this and until now have not wanted to comment but feel the time is right,. I worked on the Bakerloo and I remember when you were banned and sent to the East London but only after the 1938 stock had gone. You were always taking trains out of service for the slightest fault and some even said that you had put some of the faults on. What about when you derailed the train at Baker Street NB platform 9. We keep hearing about your publication and you now say hopefully it will be ready for the 40th, exactly what is the problem. I should say I worked in the offices at Baker Street at the time.

      Steve

      September 4, 2014 at 7:43 am

      • Concerning my derailment I would refer you to: Department of Transport, Railway Accidents, Report on the Safety Record of the Railways in Great Britain during the year 1980, London HMSO. Page 29, Failure of Staff in Other Departments, (i) Errors by Permanent Way Staff: Inadequate track maintenance,
        3rd March. – As a 7-car train of 1938 Tube stock was entering Baker Street (LT Rlys) the motorman felt the leading car pull to the left, made an emergency brake application, and stopped the train 16m short of the normal mark. The traction current was automatically discharged because the leading pair of wheels had become derailed. Examination of the track showed it to be 15mm wide to gauge with the high rail side-cut to the limit. Services were resumed after 5 hours with a speed restriction of 15 mile/h and the track was relaid that night. It was felt that the deterioration of the track that led to the derailment was due to trains entering the station at speeds in excess of the 30 mile/h permanent speed restriction.

        No blame whatsoever on me. Furthermore, it was my first operational trip on the Bakerloo after a three-year enforced absence.

        Being a bit of a raspberry ripple and suffering, inter alia, from bone damage in both wrists and in my neck, it is sometimes very difficult to get the necessary work done, but hopefully by the fortieth anniversary, perhaps sooner, I’ll have my publication out. I don’t remember a ‘Steve’ in the Baker Strasse offices, but there was a Michael. Assistant Divisional Manager Dickie Sadler, who lived in Camberwell, and I used to have stand up rows in his office, and Michael Fish, the Divisional Manager, used to make me laugh when he swivelled round in that over sized leather chair of his. Michael Fish is or was, a close associate of Terry Lowe, the man who explained and illustrated everything about the Moorgate crash train to the then Chief Inspecting Officer of Railways, Ian McNaughton. Incidentally, after my train derailed, Michael Fish and I, plus a Relief Station Foreman by the name of Mick Mills, walked south through the northbound tunnel to Oxford Circus to make sure there wasn’t any stranded trains and passengers. At one point Michael Fish tripped over and Mick Micks picked him up saying “What? Are you pissed or something?”. Very funny at the time! By the way, I never put defects on the trains. They were all defective anyway. .

        Anthony Bright

        September 18, 2014 at 9:14 am

  105. Why was train 272 put into service as they knew there was a fault on it, That train was taken from Neasden Depot to go to the Drayton Park depot, So why was it being used? A poor innocent person lost his life for no reason, That’s Manslaughter, A Hanging/Electric Chair case,Why does’nt LT admit to that? That they are in the wrong! Definatly A COVER UP, Hush Hush job,Back Hander? Well i’m sorry NO WAY are you going to get away with it! Recall Everyone back round the table & do the job right, The train was being checked over the night before < So where's the proof & evidence to show that the train was fit to be used in service? Why has'nt that been brought up? Apparently the train was in a siding, The General Public have waited 39 &1/4 years so far for the answers, truth,& why did this happen in the 1st place to come out in a report (The Proper 1) & NO WAY was that "Accidental Death" The whole case needs to be re-opened & studied properly.now & not in 2051 as recently stated!

    sirdjmac_snr@hotmail.com

    June 17, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    • Trains were and still are regularly offered for service with major defects on. Depot staff often hope the crews won’t notice them and change the trouble cards where train crews log defects with new ones.

      Jim

      September 19, 2014 at 4:24 pm

  106. Has anyone bothered to contact his wife Helen recently? Surely she must know something about this? eg Did they have a quarell the night before or that morning? It sounds a bit dodgy that they were staying at a hotel nearby, The Greenock? as this has been stated in previous reports, Something just does’nt add up & it’s time that this case is solved & solved properly, If a £50 note was lying on the table That would soon dissapear, So why has’nt this been solved? Sheer laziness, Shame on you! No wonder people feel safer using their own transport. So remember The public have asked questions, It’s time they got Answers!

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    July 7, 2014 at 3:02 pm

  107. Come on now Wake Up, Fun times over, Time work was done, Time cost’s money or have’nt you realised that yet, Let’s be fair about this Whoever the Culprit is who’s holding everything up needs to be kicked out & lives on £53 a week,(& that if your lucky)& NO backhander’s either,So think about this case & do something about it! 39 &3/4 years for simple answers is far too long to get the proper truth out & published!I’m keeping a record of this & won’t let go til i get the proper truth& verdict out published, I must thank Richard Jones & Brian Goodfellow again for what they’ve done, Well Done Boys, You both deserve a special Award each for doing this.

    djmac_snr@hotmail.com

    September 17, 2014 at 1:34 pm

  108. Is there really a conspiracy here? I think the evidence speaks for its self. Leslie Newson out of boredom or a medical condition drove his train into a dead end.

    Big Ed

    September 18, 2014 at 7:59 am

  109. I started out as a guard on the Central Line in the early 1980’s and my rostered driver (now deceased) previously worked on the Northern City line. He told me Leslie Newson was a dreamer and more than once be seen in the mess room completely zoned out and in a trance like state. After the disaster the crews were all seen by the then operations director Charlie Cope and told if they value their jobs to keep their mouths shut about it.
    He never mentioned anything to me about any mechanical aspects being covered up, but knowing the poor state of maintenance the older stock on LU got I can well believe the train was not as well maintained as was claimed.

    Jim

    September 19, 2014 at 4:18 pm

  110. For some reason I have not been getting updates emailed to me as it used to so I have missed a lot of comments for what looks like the best part of a year.

    It astounds me that there are so many fingers being pointed at London Underground itself yet nobody can show any evidence to back this up. I have taken this crash on as a project for over 4 years solid and have found a lot of new evidence and spoke to a lot of people who have never had their voices heard before. I have probably more information than most others and access to a hell of a lot more, yet I have come across so many people who talk utter rubbish and blame everybody from the train companies to the Labour Party.

    If these conspiracies are to be taken seriously then you must provide evidence and show that you have done your research instead of just voicing what you have heard from other people. I would be very interested to hear any real stories and I am not afraid to go digging around and asking questions. If the truth is out there then I will find it, unfortunately it seems to be buried under a mound of armchair conspiracy theorists and bored journalists.

    I would gladly speak to anybody on this forum by email shipwreckdata@yahoo.co.uk if they would prefer to meet face to face then we can arrange something suitable.

    Please do not be afraid to speak out……I will gladly keep you anonymous as long as the evidence is unearthed!

    Rich Jones

    Rich Jones

    October 8, 2014 at 10:17 am

  111. To Anthony Bright
    Your derailment was preventable as you stated in the DOT report but what puzzles me is that you stopped 16m short of the normal stopping mark! So your speed must have been above the line speed of 30mph but as you said they cleared you of blame and mention was made of other drivers entering the station faster.
    Your first trip back on the Bakerloo, what had you done to be banned from working on the line, as you make out you are squeaky clean.
    The delay in your Moorgate story being delayed due to your health I am sorry to hear that but you put a lot of time on here and other places over the years, I suspect you are having problems best kept to yourself.
    You don’t remember a Steve at Baker Street offices that implies that you knew everyone who worked there? I think not but you were known throughout the Divisional offices for all the wrong reasons which I will list some later on. The Michael you are talking about was Michael Mowe, however, I can’t see the reason of mentioning that Dickie Sadler lived in Camberwell or was it because you were friendly with him, that’s the normal reason for dropping such hints.
    Michael Fish ex Rolling Stock was a little guy who probably felt intimidated by you; Terry Lowe was also a Rolling Stock person so more than likely that was how they knew each other.
    The RSF you mention I seem to remember that he along with others was in a group of people that you associated with. The comment made about Michael Fish I suspect he tripped due to being a senior manager and not being used to getting his hands dirty, I am surprised that you were never given any sort of award for checking for stalled trains etc.
    You say you never put defects on well you must be a very loyal member of staff, yes trains have defects some even develop them whilst in service and some are put there. Depot are only human wanting the trains to go into service, but if the drivers who prepared the trains were doing their job then surely they would have noticed the defects.
    Reading through your post’s you seem to be implying that LT and the HMRI were hand in hand with a cover up, if this is the case then perhaps we can look forward to a review like Hillsborough where the truth came out. You also seem to blame other drivers for breaking the speed limit but you never drove above those limits?
    Now I will mention the things I said I would.
    1. Did you not escort a reporter(s) around various depots at night so that they could photograph staff asleep (public knowledge as this was reported in the Evening Standard, although your name was not mentioned).
    2. You were heavily involved with the union and even they did not put up with your antics, that’s why you have made statements regarding their involvement with the Moorgate inquiry.
    3. You took LT to an Industrial tribunal and lost (public knowledge).
    We can only hope when your publication is published that it contains the truth and that these can be substantiated.

    Steve

    October 11, 2014 at 8:53 am

    • ‘The Mysterious Cause Of The 1975 Moorgate Tube Train Collision: The Evidence Suggests………..’ with many substantive observations will hopefully be ready for publication before the fortieth anniversary. Perhaps the contents of it will be of some use in securing a new inquest, one that doesn’t last for just a few days like the original one did, despite over sixty witnesses to examine concerning forty-three fatalities. Lip service comes to mind. Anyway Steve X, if I stopped 16m short of the stop mark, which was located at the entrance to the northbound running tunnel, how was I exceeding the 30mph line speed? Regarding Baker Street Divisional Offices, I always thought that I was well regarded by all the staff there. Dickie Sadler and I had our differences but there was never any animosity between us. I was a Bermondsey boy and he was a Camberwell boy. I never put defects onto the trains. They were already defective. I always prepared my trains but sadly there were those who didn’t. I picked up a train at Baker Street one day after a meal relief and found that it still had a brake defect on it that had’nt been dealt with and should have been found on preparation. I took it out of service and then had to see an Area Manager to explain why. I did and I also told him to take the matter up with the driver who had brought it in to service. He did, and threatened the driver with disciplinary action. At a later date, when that driver complained to me about setting the Area Manager on to him I told him that if he could’nt be bothered to do his job properly then he could FO. It nearly came to fisticuffs but he never handed over such a defective train again. Perhaps you may wish to properly identify yourself?

      Anthony Bright

      November 1, 2014 at 9:06 am

  112. […] The Moorgate Train Crash Deconstructed – blog post with interesting comments […]

    Moorgate | vanessarama

    March 9, 2015 at 2:34 pm

  113. TGA is NOT a seizure!

    K

    July 3, 2015 at 11:48 am

  114. Perhaps a case of low blood sugar? There’s no mention of diabetes but it could’ve been undiagnosed. My brother has insulin-dependent Juvenile Diabetes. He had an incident at a family dinner where I first only noticed he was quiet while my aunt stole his fries – which he wouldn’t let go by without comment.

    I looked at his face and he was rigid, staring straight ahead, only his eyes would widen now and again, and beads of sweat were appearing on his forehead. He held his fork straight up in one hand and never dropped it. I said his name, shook him, then said his name louder and louder until I jumped up, knocking my chair over, and the whole family burst into action.

    My aunt tried getting him to swallow some Coke, which he couldn’t. We were at a hotel restaurant gathered for a family wedding, and as my mother got the waiter to call 911 since we didn’t know the address, a cousin shot out the door, vaulted a stair rail, and ran to a fire station just up the street he’d passed on a morning run earlier that day. It was them who came and brought my brother around. He said he didn’t remember a thing beyond coming down from our hotel room for a (apparently too late) late lunch, then woke up surrounded by EMTs.

    He stared ahead, was rigid, and held onto that fork for throughout the entire incident, which lasted, from when I noticed at least, several critical, long minutes. Seems like such a thing could have happened to the driver.

    Accounts for so much: the witnesses descriptions of him staring right ahead, his failure to reacted even to a large jolt, and his grip on the dead-man’s switch.

    I hadn’t heard the of this case until today (came across a discussion on Reddit) and the similarities struck me immediately.

    Meg Whitmore DiPaolo

    July 4, 2015 at 4:03 pm

  115. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3182881/Police-launch-inquiry-claims-serial-killer-pushed-24-people-deaths-Tube-trains.html

    if they can cover that up , who knows what else they could cover up ?

    in the 70’s too – seems to have been a decade and a half for that sort of thing

    Flappo

    August 3, 2015 at 1:03 am

  116. WE’RE COMING UP TO 41 YEARS SOON 28.2.2016 & WHAT EXACTLY BEEN DONE TO FIND OUT MORE ABOUT THIS, Why has’nt Cameron said anything Typical Tories as usual Wave a £50 note in front of him, He’ll soon take that! Another Waste of Space We don’t need another Blair!!

    D.J.McDougall

    October 31, 2015 at 4:31 pm

  117. 28.2.2016. Yes it’s 41 years ago today & what’s been done about the important part “Answers to the General Public” as to what did go wrong that morning, It’s a sheer utter disgrace to our Government & LT for failing to do their jobs properly, LN was set up by being told to take that train due to the number sequence being out of line, “Manslaughter”

    dj

    February 28, 2016 at 4:20 am

    • Leslie Newson wasn’t set up, sure there was poor train maintenance but that was the way the job ran in those days.

      Jim

      March 19, 2016 at 8:51 am


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