Doug's Darkworld

War, Science, and Philosophy in a Fractured World.

Hamas Talks, Israel Demands

with 14 comments

road_to_peace.gif
Working Together. Credit: Hello Peace

Hamas has agreed to peace talks with Israel. You would think that Israel would jump at the chance to sit down at the table and work out peace with Hamas, or at least have something positive to say, I mean, it is a step in the right direction, right? Not according to the Israeli government, they simply re-iterated a list of demands that Hamas must meet before Israel will sit down at a table with them. The demands are of course outrageous, so it is unlikely there will be any peace talks. Sadly this is what counts for “diplomacy” in the USA and Israel. They make an ultimatum, then when their target refuses to give in to humiliating demands, they claim “diplomacy failed.” And if the chosen victim does give in to their demands and jumps through hoops, they simply raise the hoops and make more demands.

And this nasty diplomatic scam has grown far worse with the Bush administration in power. Israel can pretty much do what they want and Bush will give his unbridled support. So there’s at least two more years of this crap before we will see any progress made in bringing peace to the Middle East. As always, I pray it doesn’t get worse before it gets better. On the plus side, if the Apocalypse and the rapture comes, I’ll get a free car.

Just for fun though, let’s look at Israel’s demands. First off Hamas must recognise Israel’s right to exist. Since Israel does exist, and has existed since 1948, it’s hard to see this as anything but an attempt to further humiliate the Palestinians. Israel has never recognised the Palestinian’s right to have a state of their own, and in fact has actively prevented same since 1948. Basically Israel is demanding that the hostage recognise the legitimacy of the kidnapping before a ransom can even be discussed.

Secondly Israel demands that Hamas renounce violence. Yes, one of the most militarized violent governments on the history of the planet is demanding that Hamas roll over and play dead before Israel will talk. What are the chances that Israel will renounce violence? Zero, in fact Israel has ignored any cease fire ever declared by the Palestinians. If Israel refuses to have any limitations on its use of violence, why should Hamas? Thirdly Israel demands that Palestine live up to it’s obligations under treaty with Israel. Coming from he country that has defied more UN resolutions than any other nation, this is pretty rich. And considering that the Palestinians are a powerless occupied territory with utterly zero status as a nation state, again this is absurd.

The fact remains that Israel has occupied the West Bank and Gaza for forty years and kept them in stateless limbo. Heck, Gaza has recently been converted into one giant open air prison camp. The only player in this mess with any power is Israel, and the situation that exists is one utterly of their own making. Maybe someday Israel will get a Rabin back in office and they can actually sit down again and talk to the Palestinians. Millions of Palestinians live in stateless hopeless limbo merely because of the accident of their birth. Heck, maybe Israel should just kick the Palestinians out and let them wander the earth as a persecuted minority for centuries, that’ll show em.

I know much of the above is unfair, but it pisses me off that one of the most powerful countries in the world (and easily the most powerful country in the Middle East) has managed to portray itself as victim of the people it is keeping imprisoned! God help the Israelis and Palestinians who are still working together to find peace for this fractured land.

(The above image is claimed as Fair Use under US copyright law. It is being used for peace, not profit.)

Written by unitedcats

November 13, 2006 at 10:05 am

Posted in Bush, Peace, Politics, Propaganda

14 Responses

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  1. Doug,

    I don’t understand why a nation would negotiate with an organization (some would say terrorist) to begin with. Hamas is not a recognized government, does not even have a seat in the U.N. I think that in the scheme of things that Israel has the upper hand, and needs to maintain it. Didn’t the I.R.A. seek peaceful resolution against the British state only after the Brits refused to negotiate with them unless their demands were followed?

    I still think my idea of giving our land back to the Indians is the best idea–then we could tell those mean ‘ol Israelis what to do! :)

    (Being cute)

    -Jack

    bereans

    November 13, 2006 at 12:36 pm

  2. Doug,

    I think it’s great that Hamas wants to talk. I think it’s awful that all Israel does is make demands and not want to talk peacefully. I was upset when I heard last week that Israel set off a rocket that missed its mark and ended up killing many women and children. I don’t blame Hamas for getting furious and ending the truce. What is Israel doing?

    If Bush wants to help the situation, why doesn’t he meet with a Hamas leader or with Syria and Iran, instead of only meeting with Olmert? An attitude of being condescending, does not belong in diplomacy. If a country thinks it’s too good to talk with a lesser group, then why even bother saying you want to settle the conflict?

    Light

    lightcontrast

    November 13, 2006 at 7:59 pm

  3. Exactly, if people sit down at a table and talk, often they can work out their differences. And it CAN’T HURT, if someone is refusing to talk it’s because they think they can do better without talking. Legitimacy has nothing to do with it, it’s a game, governments talk to “illicit” organizations all the time if it suits their purposes.

    The IRA got the Brits to the table when they invented “bloodless terrorism.” Two bombs, a billion dollars damage to the British economy, no one hurt. And frankly, it’s worked out pretty well, despite all the people in the 80s I recall who were foaming at the mouth about what inhuman monsters the IRA was and than talks would never work. Topic for a blog post I am sure. :)

    JMO Doug

    unitedcats

    November 13, 2006 at 9:19 pm

  4. Not to mention that Hamas was democratically elected. In fact, Hamas going to the ballot meant that they had to give up some of their questionable violent tactics.

    Promoting democracy is not about not talking to legitimately elected governments, and it’s not about cutting aid because someone you don’t like got elected. (Israel has stopped its $60 milion aid, and have thus cut civil servants’ salaries.)

    Dmitri Marine

    November 13, 2006 at 10:23 pm

  5. LOL Jack was being tongue-in-cheek. Though the issue of Hawaian independence has merit, the Kingdom of Hawaii was an internationally recognised nation when the US annexed it on behalf of commercial sugar growers. So many blog topics, so little time. Sigh.

    Doug

    unitedcats

    November 14, 2006 at 8:24 am

  6. Doug,

    I agree. I think it’s Sudan where the US is siding with the drug lords against the people. They say they want to negotiate with them, but what about the people? I’m not sure what the US gets out of it, unless the US wants some drug profits…

    Light

    lightcontrast

    November 14, 2006 at 8:53 am

  7. Hi Doug,

    I understand what you say, but you know me–not always in agreement:) That’s what makes our dialogue so exciting and makes for progress in the world!

    I just don’t understand why Israel bashing became the vogue. Everyone is concerned about the Palestinians, but know little or nothing about their origin or intent. I don’t believe that this is the case with you, Doug, but many who discuss the issue seem to have no real understanding of the it, but just repeat the talking points of the MSM. Wouldn’t telling the Israelis to negotiate with Hamas be like telling the United States to negotiate with Timothy McVeigh or a domestic para-military group whose intent is political persuasion through violence, or for us to negotiate with Bin Laden and all of his terrorist cells that are at work here domestically? There is so much to that dynamic over there, I find it hard to be judgmental on this issue.

    Not in relation to you, but I also don’t understand how many on the left can advocate violence through terrorism, but be anti-war? (This has stumped me for years–why someone would support blowing up women and children–who ARE the target, but criticize military action between men, with incidental civilian casualties). Hamas has killed many a woman and child in Israel and many of their own fellow Palestinians–it is a despicable organization that will go to any end to justify their means.

    Israel is surrounded by people who want nothing less than their extermination, internally saturated with people who are willing to train their own children to blow themselves up in a market place, all, might I add, with little sympathy from America’s left. I cruise many of the left blogs and sites and have yet to see condemnation for remarks from Mahmoud Ahmadinejad who indicates that the Jewish people should be “wiped from the face of the earth.” No, instead he gets speaking invitations from Columbia University.

    The only reason Israel exists is they have received military support from the United States. Any piece of land has always been the real estate of those who claim it and have the might to hold it. This has been since the dawn of time (see Kubrik’s opening scene for 2001:). Don’t think that for a moment that if the United States discontinues military support and alliance that its Arabic neighbors won’t turn the fertile crescent into a red one.

    I guess I’m personally a little reluctant to judge these people until I had walked a mile in thier shoes.

    Looking forward to your I.R.A. post!

    -Jack

    bereans

    November 14, 2006 at 9:25 am

  8. Terrific post Doug and I respectfully disagree Jack. I am close to the Palestinian community in my city here, count many Palestinians as friends and admire their resilience and commitment to peace despite the persistent bellicosity and aggression of Israel.

    Most of us in the peace movement do not condone violence regardless of who commits it, be it Hamas’ military wing or the military machine of the IDF. And the overwhelmingly perpetrators of violence is the state of Israel, and the Palestinians the victims.

    The Palestinians I know DO recognise Israel, are willing to live alongside them and accept international law in UN Res 242 (1967 borders), its the Israeli establishment that doesn’t want peace.

    As for Ahmadinejad, did he really say he wanted Israel “wiped off the map”? This may be of interest you.

    I am of Middle Eastern origin and speak Arabic. My family has had Jewish connections for a long time and I have good Jewish friends. A Jewish population has existed in many Arab countries (they still number 25 000 to 40 000 in Iran) and were protected as people of the book prior to the establishment of the state of Israel. No one in the Arab world has ever begrudged Jews a home, but not when it comes at the expense of and means the uprooting and violent dispossession of the indigenous Palestinian population who are denied their basic human rights to this day by an often brutal Israeli state. That’s the source of the most legitimate grievance, not Israel per se.

    Again, this is a terrific post and I will be linking to it. Thanks for a great read Doug.

    peoplesgeography

    November 15, 2006 at 4:30 am

  9. Interestingly enough too, prior to peace treaties with both Egypt and Jordan, this spurious demand of recognising Israel’s ‘right’ to exist was not demanded of either Egypt or Jordan.

    peoplesgeography

    November 15, 2006 at 6:51 am

  10. Doug

    Very interesting right on the target. Man of truth and justice who do not fear to say what is right. Salute my respects and regards for writing this piece.

    Quran Bible

    November 15, 2006 at 9:10 am

  11. A lot of ground here and I clearly will have more to say on the subject. For now I will again say that I deplore any and all military actions that are designed to kill civilians…from Palestinian suicide bombers to Israeli cluster munitions. And I agree, way to many sites are too partisan and ignore atrocities committed in their stead. Nonetheless there are those on both sides who do condemn all violence and are working together for peace. It is giving them a voice I am interested in, and discussing the history and events that have led us to this dreadful impasse.

    Thanks for all the thoughtful comments,
    Doug

    unitedcats

    November 15, 2006 at 11:00 am

  12. Enjoyable post, and I definitely admire PG’s knowledge on the topic.

    Here is an interesting item in the news today:

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3328416,00.html

    PG, I have an acqaintance that worked for me (she was a medical consultant)who was Egyptian. I never knew how different the mindset of the middle-eastern mind was from ours until I spoke with her in great detail. I’ll share more when I have time–but needless to say, those folk definitely don’t think like we wide-eyed and idealistic westerners! :)

    Regards,

    -Jack

    bereans

    November 15, 2006 at 2:32 pm

  13. Thanks Jack, I read the article and the claim that there is a great war to destroy Israel after half of it had somehow already been destroyed by Hezbollah is clearly absurd, I agree. It insults readers’ intelligence, including Iranians. But then I don’t believe the often lurid, sensationalistic headlines of one of the oldest dailies in the US, the New York Post, either. I think this is being used to generate fear and justify strikes against Iran and we would do well not to buy into it IMHO, just as the WMD claims (lies) directed against Iraq as a pretext for invasion were proven to be manufactured.

    As for MEMRI, I’m sure you’ve been around long enough to know something about their political orientation and origins in Israeli intelligence. Here’s their Wikipedia entry with links to articles that critically appraise what they’re all about, they’re not exactly a bridge-building or dialogue fostering institution.

    I don’t know, I think Middle Easterners are just as idealistic … but I think it depends upon the individual as much as the more collective mindset. Straddling two cultures is definitely very interesting and I very much look forward to what you have to say, Jack. Whether we agree or disagree, I hope (and have a feeling) it will be a mutually enriching and enjoyable exchange.

    cheers
    Ann

    peoplesgeography

    November 15, 2006 at 4:45 pm

  14. I think your comment “those folk” is a little revealing Jack. In any event I have commented at length on MEMRI, the YNET link you posted, and the terror threat in general:
    Global Terror
    I look forward to more comments. BB —Doug

    unitedcats

    November 16, 2006 at 10:43 am


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